KMSP Approach and Center Controllers

Ozelot said:
Here at MSP, we try to use visual approaches to the maximum extent possible (I'm sure every facility does ;-) ). It is MUCH easier to work then utilizing the parallel dependant ILS approaches. Having that said, some controllers will and some controllers won't push it. Just this morning it was clear and a billion out, and my first arrival didn't pick out the airport until 6 mile final due to do the sun angle and haze. He said it was only easy for him to see at that point because he is familiar, after the second plane concurred I looked to the fella working the south parallel and said "I think it might be time to go to ILS".

I guess i'd personally rather just switch ya'll to instruments over pushing visuals and hoping you see it, even though it is more work. It's less of a headache in the end for you guys and then you won't have to go around or be vectored back out because of my stubbornness.
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In fact, we had to create a training profile for being left high downwind abeam and being asked to make short approaches. Lots of folks were overspeeding flaps and breaking the rules on stabilized approaches. You'll probably see a lot of buses "slow down then go down" in these situations now.
 
queeno said:
Wow at my time at C90 i found running ILSs 10 times easyier than trying to run VAs less talking ( got en in sight got em in sight got em in sight ), less BS if pilot dosent have the airport because you allready have your spaceing more control of the problem . If they do call the airport or traffic its iceing on the cake, if not who cares. In fact they dont teach you to do VAs they teach ILSs so you can learn to space the aircraft the correct way.....at C90 the technique is called C to A and we are taught 3 speeds 250, 210/200, 180/170 any thing else is just used to massage the final .Maybe thats why we move so much traffic so efficiently !
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I can see your point for sure. My experience in terminal is in its infancy though, as I progress and learn my thought on things will change. I've been trained to use a similar style of speeds when we are ILSing. 250 on the downwind to get out there. 210 on the base that way if i'm late i'll have speed to catch back up. And 170/180 to the marker and that leaves room to massage. You guys have to be efficient...since ya'll are the busiest in the word and all.
 
Derg said:
In fact, we had to create a training profile for being left high downwind abeam and being asked to make short approaches. Lots of folks were overspeeding flaps and breaking the rules on stabilized approaches. You'll probably see a lot of buses "slow down then go down" in these situations now.
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Ya i've seen people do that do you guys, I try not to do it because I know it might put you guys in an uncomfortable position. Trainer A wants me to slam you guys in, Trainer B does not like that operation.
 
Derg said:
I got sent around all throughout creation because I didn't have DTW in sight. The FO swore he had it, but unless we both see it, no one sees it. I had him point to the airport and it was Willow Run. At that point, it seems like approach wanted to teach us a lesson by groaning and vectoring us off the arrival path, but that's alright. If I can't confidently see the airport, the risks are far, far too high trying to be Joe Cool.
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Thats so chicken poop weak in my book (ATC folks) !

Got the Airport

Nope

Well maintain 5 to the glide have a nice ride tower inside 26 9....see yaaa!

thats the C90 way !!!
 
queeno said:
Thats so chicken poop weak in my book (ATC folks) !
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I agree. I may be a slow facility but if I have a sequence and we are doing visuals I have a certain cutoff point where if you don't get the field or the guy you're following I just continue to descend you as low as I can, vector you to a base/intercept (whichever is applicable) usually around a 5 mile final for the airlines, I find they aren't comfortable with anything inside that. Heading to intercept, report the field.

That way I don't screw up my sequence, I'm not being weak or a dick, it works 99.9% of the time, etc. I mean maybe a little adjusting. I work as hard as I can to set you up in terms of altitude, intercept, etc. Some guys run them in, see they are high, clear them... i'm kind of thinking... Ok you told that guy keep the speed up, he is like 4000 feet joining a 5 mile final... do you really think you are doing him a service????? $20 bucks he goes around and you get to work him again, and if not, thank GOD I am not on that plane. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
 
Actually, would like to add... I'm not saying I've never made a mistake or not set someone up great. I just try my hardest every time. I re-read that and sounded like I think I'm Billy Bob Pushing Tin. Far from it.
 
AM011309 said:
I agree. I may be a slow facility but if I have a sequence and we are doing visuals I have a certain cutoff point where if you don't get the field or the guy you're following I just continue to descend you as low as I can, vector you to a base/intercept (whichever is applicable) usually around a 5 mile final for the airlines, I find they aren't comfortable with anything inside that. Heading to intercept, report the field.

That way I don't screw up my sequence, I'm not being weak or a dick, it works 99.9% of the time, etc. I mean maybe a little adjusting. I work as hard as I can to set you up in terms of altitude, intercept, etc. Some guys run them in, see they are high, clear them... i'm kind of thinking... Ok you told that guy keep the speed up, he is like 4000 feet joining a 5 mile final... do you really think you are doing him a service????? $20 bucks he goes around and you get to work him again, and if not, thank GOD I am not on that plane. Grrrrrrrrrrr.
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The reason guys won't take an approach inside the marker is because we can't be stabilized in that time. If we intercept at, say, 4 miles, were only at 1,200', and only have 200' to stabilize.
 
jtrain609 said:
The reason guys won't take an approach inside the marker is because we can't be stabilized in that time. If we intercept at, say, 4 miles, were only at 1,200', and only have 200' to stabilize.
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Yeah, I knew something like that...just that it's "pilot stuff", not the specifics :-)
 
AM011309 said:
Yeah, I knew something like that...just that it's "pilot stuff", not the specifics :)
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Ha! Ok here's pilot stuff drilled down: if you see somebody going faster than about 140 knots at 1,000', they SHOULD be going around.

How they get there is up to them.
 
queeno said:
Thats so chicken poop weak in my book (ATC folks) !

Got the Airport

Nope

Well maintain 5 to the glide have a nice ride tower inside 26 9....see yaaa!

thats the C90 way !!!
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When you were at C90, what did you have your guys on downwind at? Retired NorCal controller told me matching final speed (180) on downwind was optimum (otherwise the downwinds get extended too far out).
 
Those things are terribly designed. The restrictions create alot of work and unnecessary level offs/ dive bombs with the need to also slow down. Not sure how they are working out in other planes but it sucks in ours. Bainy 1 especially.
 
I think it works pretty well in the 30s/35 config. Seems like M98 has a little more room from the arrival gates for the sequence, especially during VMC days when you can clear direct PIGZI, BONNA and SSTAR for the visual.

Derek
 
queeno said:
Wow at my time at C90 i found running ILSs 10 times easyier than trying to run VAs less talking ( got en in sight got em in sight got em in sight ), less BS if pilot dosent have the airport because you allready have your spaceing more control of the problem . If they do call the airport or traffic its iceing on the cake, if not who cares. In fact they dont teach you to do VAs they teach ILSs so you can learn to space the aircraft the correct way.....at C90 the technique is called C to A and we are taught 3 speeds 250, 210/200, 180/170 any thing else is just used to massage the final .Maybe thats why we move so much traffic so efficiently !
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I've had C to A explained to me 3 to 5 times and I still don't fully get it. I'm told I have to see it in action.

Or maybe I should just steer clear of C90.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Those things are terribly designed. The restrictions create alot of work and unnecessary level offs/ dive bombs with the need to also slow down. Not sure how they are working out in other planes but it sucks in ours. Bainy 1 especially.
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My buddy flies the CRj9 and he hates them as well. I've found that I end up taking guys off the things when they are "near gate" arrivals. Controllers are finding that it works a lot better to just give you 7000 and send you direct ALGIN or WAYZA right after you get in our airspace on the TORGY or BAINY. You guys are level a lot sooner at 7 and its easier for the final controller to get you down in a timely fashion that way. The same idea is being used on 30s as well from the MUSCL and KKILER stars.
 
jtrain609 said:
Ha! Ok here's pilot stuff drilled down: if you see somebody going faster than about 140 knots at 1,000', they SHOULD be going around.

How they get there is up to them.
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To be clear for our controller friends the stabilized at 1k is usually 121 pilot stuff

And ref for the MD11 is like 155 or something crazy wild.
 
queeno said:
Wow at my time at C90 i found running ILSs 10 times easyier than trying to run VAs less talking ( got en in sight got em in sight got em in sight ), less BS if pilot dosent have the airport because you allready have your spaceing more control of the problem . If they do call the airport or traffic its iceing on the cake, if not who cares. In fact they dont teach you to do VAs they teach ILSs so you can learn to space the aircraft the correct way.....at C90 the technique is called C to A and we are taught 3 speeds 250, 210/200, 180/170 any thing else is just used to massage the final .Maybe thats why we move so much traffic so efficiently !
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No kidding. Visuals help the pilot and hurt the controller unless you're working a slow guy in and avoiding wake on 10 mile final. Hey, they're splitting out the PRMs go ahead and back load are sweet words.
 
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