Another HEMS crash
- Thread starter dustoff17
- Start date
Out here, none of the HEMS helos land on anything other than a road or helipad; no off field landings of any kind. We don't transport to the hospital when we do rescues , rope or hoist, unless exigent circumstances; so we often have to effect rescues from mountains or the like, then transload to HEMS on a road or parking lot, so they can make the transport to the hospital.
Two pilot/Two engines won't necessarily solve much, and due to that, no operator will shell out the cash to do so.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Over four years ago I had a good friend of mine, a very close dear friend honestly, that was very interested in HEMS work. She was a nurse and we have since lost touch, but I truly hope she never finds herself in the HEMS realm. HEMS downright scares the hell out of me.
For those involved in the HEMS segment, what level of SMS development/deployment has been pursued? Talk about a segment that really could benefit from a strong SMS infrastructure.
For those involved in the HEMS segment, what level of SMS development/deployment has been pursued? Talk about a segment that really could benefit from a strong SMS infrastructure.
it varies. Some places use programs such as PRISM with its associated tools such as FRAT and ARMOR, tailored to their specific operational needs.
badtransam97
Well-Known Member
I work for a very small hems outfit, and we have just incorporated an online sms system in the last year, that allows anonymous reports, hazrep's etc...and they are uploaded and reviewed by safety director/team. It's a start, and hopefully a step in the right direction. Only so much one can do though, until it ultimately comes down to the PIC and/or the crew as a whole making the correct, informed go/no go decision. Then, sometimes accidents are mechanical in nature and then it falls upon proper maintenance and thorough pre/post flight inspections.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I'm sorry but there is no damn reason that in 2015 an inadvertent IMC encounter in a 135 aircraft (whether the wings spin or not) should result in a fatal crash. Not saying anything about the crash at hand, but the weather thing came up earlier in the thread. Maintain control, climb, and get into the system or at least back to somewhere you have descendable weather. It's not rocket science.
Nor is the situation as easy as you write here. It should be that easy, but there are a host of factors that make it not as easy, sadly, in these light helos. Everything from lack of instrument currency, non-instrument aircraft, non-radar environments, sometimes terrain areas (though not for the Midwest), etc. I agree it shouldn't happen, but there are real-world factors with these operations that don't allow it to always be not rocket science.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Mike, I understand very well the disparity between how it should be and how it is. Many bits of the Alaska 135 community are in a similar situation with a tradition of doing stupid things to stay visual in bad weather, either due to a lack of equipment, lack of pilot proficiency, or whatnot. It all comes down to, are we ok with the current accident rate? Because if not then things have to change. If that means that the old guard that isn't comfortable going on the gauges and climbing, then using the GPS to avoid terrain until they can find VFR (who cares if they even bother getting into the IFR system?) has to be forced out, and if operators need to pony up for better instrument flying equipment, then so be it. Otherwise we can keep losing a medevac helo every 6 months or so, I don't really care as I don't have skin in that game but if I did I think I'd be calling for blood at this point. It's the 21st century, we've been flying in clouds routinely for what, 70 years? It's time for some communities to accept that and get comfortable with it or get out. At least be able to keep the shiny side up and not hit anything in IIMC for God's sake, or your passengers' sake.
Preaching to the choir.
Sadly, I wish it was able to be that way. Ultimately, it comes down to the almighty dollar, and equipment-wise, you can only play the cards you're dealt. And the most important thing one can do is ensure that they are trained and current as best as possible as a pilot, prepared for things such as IIMC that one can personally be prepared for themselves, regardless of equipment; and not making basic mistakes that will kill you when encountering those situations. Such as going IIMC and while maneuvering in a turn/climb, caging your ADI so now you really have zero idea of your attitude and are 100% more spatial-D'd than you were before. Or not getting any instrument training/currency/practice, aside from IIMC training, for many years. It's not so much "old guard", as these kinds of things are biting newer pilots too.
Two pilot, twin engine......all nice to have's, not need to have's.
Am about to head out in a few minutes, to go single-engine, night/NVG with low illum, working inside mountains and box canyons in support of search and LE ops. There's probably about 15 ways I can mort myself tonight, but those are the cards I'm dealt. I play them as best I can.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
So many hazards, even more consequences, and to what extent does the risk inhibit the mission?
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Sure, you're working with what you've got. But it seems to me that at least from the outside looking in, many of the HEMS accidents would have been a nonissue had the pilot had the equipment and proficiency to go up instead of down when confronted with deteriorating weather. It just doesn't seem too much to ask that guys should be equipped and proficient to climb 1000' pull a 180, and get back to better weather on the gauges. If the HEMS community can nail that down then maybe we'll work on keeping you alive at night in a box canyon
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Capt. Chaos
Well-Known Member
A lot of work had been done up here on IMC/Flat light conditions in the helicopter community. After Temsco piled up 3 A Stars in a afternoon the insurance industry required all of the helicopter operators hire only guys with IFR ratings as a start. All the glacier tour operators now have yearly training on flat light/imc encounters that includes things like a full imc departure off a glacier, climbing above terrain and a decent into the airport. The risk of loss of life and machine was seen as great enough to have a formal bootleg IFR training program blessed by the FAA. These guys are just running seasonal tours and can somehow make the extra training budget out.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Couple questions for @MikeD since I respect the hell out of him and always seems to answer questions with an open mind. Do you think the offsite landing surface really has any thing to do with the accident rate? It would suck to land in a soft surface and have a dynamic rollover but I'd think that's mostly survivable. Also, a lot of new Garmin Single engine fixed wing auto pilots come with a wing leveler (single button press) of some type that is supposed to help in case of inadvertent IMC. Do you think some thing like an auto hover would help in these cases? Maybe it's already available, I'm just a fixed wing guy without any helo experience.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
EagleMed was SMS Level 3 as of last summer.
IIIRC the EMD r/w pilots have check rides every 4 months, too.
One thing I think would help the industry are true dispatchers and flight followers who have access to info the pilot doesn't while enroute. I'm pretty sure they have an area-wide repeater system available in OK in addition to a sat phone.
@MikeD how accurate is the HEMS Tool at interpolating the weather out west? I know one operator allows it to be used only to turn down a flight. The PIC cannot accept it based on the HEMS Tool weather data. This flight went down in the middle of a ~200 sq mi black hole of AWOS data. The weather was fine at the destination about the time they left, but it went down quickly.
Sure, you're working with what you've got. But it seems to me that at least from the outside looking in, many of the HEMS accidents would have been a nonissue had the pilot had the equipment and proficiency to go up instead of down when confronted with deteriorating weather. It just doesn't seem too much to ask that guys should be equipped and proficient to climb 1000' pull a 180, and get back to better weather on the gauges. If the HEMS community can nail that down then maybe we'll work on keeping you alive at night in a box canyon
Alot of the mitigation starts with the launch decision in the first place, versus getting airborne and dealing with dicey conditions then. Seems basic, I know, but that's where alot of the issues with HEMS operations appear to be the most prevelant.
I think offsite landing issues are moreso an insurance thing with regards to risk, however the risk is there, especially with brown/whiteout landing conditions that can be encountered with little notice, and which have bitten many a helo pilot. Risk vs reward, a HEMS bird that is transport-only, and isn't doing rescue, there's no real need to land offsite. Survivable or not (dynamic rollover personal survivability has alot of luck factored in, as you're just along for the ride and any host of things can go wrong, since its a crash) the loss of equipment itself, as well as crews, doesn't justify the need.
Hover hold equipment does exist, but may not necessarilyhelp in a cruise flight IMC inadverent penetration. Autopilot would be better, but since these aren't IFR birds anyway (these single-pilot ones such as AS350), no one is pushing down the doors to install one. Training remains the best option, in my opinion, over equipment. If equipment can be acquired or afforded, then that would be an immediate second.
I haven't seen it used for other than you describe; mission decline. And I face the same thing out here: west of KRYN, I have no WX reporting stations at night until KYUM nearly 180 miles west. Daytime, KGXF (halfway between the two) has hourly METAR, but no TAF. But still, that's 90 or so mile areas with no WX reporting coverage. And I've been bitten a good few times at night by that.
Flyinhigh728
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, how do the SPIFR programs go about doing scene landings? Or are IFR operations only for hospital to hospital transfers?
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I think the intent of IFR equipped aircraft and qualified pilots is that they will be comfortable and proficient going up, away from terrain, and into the system if necessary if they encounter wx enroute, not so much doing all flights on an IFR flight plan.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
The Yuropeeins have all of those things in EC145s. I mean, they also don't have 15 helicopters parked within a 50 mile radius of every major metropolitan area, with a lot of programs doing a couple of flights a week, so it's "affordable"er. Let's face it, much like everything else in our totally, barking-at-cars, hugging-yourself insane medical system, the economics of HEMS are broken...the rest follows.
The HEMS tool was pretty much crap, as far as I could tell, but I obviously didn't pay as close attention as the rotor guys. The certainly never relied on it to make a "go" decision, and seemed to treat it with a healthy amount of skepticism for a "no-go", as well.
As to sounding like a big nancy...yeah probably to some extent true. With that said, and with the proviso that this is obviously purely anecdotal, I did EMS for a little over 2 1/2 years. The guy who crashed next to SLU was the second guy I had met in that time who got dead flying HEMS. By contrast, I flew night freight in scary airplanes with supposedly dodgy maintenance and all the other hairy-chestery for ~6 years, and to the best of my knowledge, no one I knew ever died (or even got hurt) doing it. There's the perception of danger, and then there's, well, danger.
Flyinhigh728
Well-Known Member
It is a requirement for any HEMS job, including VFR only, to have an instrument rating. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of companies provide the bare minimum of training each year, so it is impossible to remain proficient.
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