Part 91 FO in Europe

M

McFly84

Well-Known Member
Hello everyone,

I have been out of the loop for quite a bit sometime. I've been here and there staying away from the cockpit but still in touch with aviation through management.
Now, I have been offered to attend a personal interview for a Part 91 FO position to fly a N registered aircraft in Europe. I am more than thrilled, especially since I have not flown in a while.
IMHO and been as realistic as I should be, I have been offered the option to interview based on a couple facts. I looked for the option of flying N in Europe and I found it, I have been very persistent and proactive, I was declined for the job before because of not being typed and did not have the hours they were looking for, they could not find a fit for their needs ( FAA license with European work authorization) and because, again, I have always been proactive. It has always been my interest to work for this company and that has somehow reactivate their interest.

I have done some research regarding cost of living in Germany, taxes(40%) and also average pay for a FO flying the sovereign ($62K USD). I am unsure if that would be a reasonable salary taking into account those facts and being a part 91 operation. I believe I may act as an SIC if I get trained by the CP or anyone qualified. 61.55.

I would like to hear your opinion and advice regardless of what you have to say. You never know who may give you an opinion that you have not considered. Would you guys ask for a relocation package? is $550 a good daily rate? how about per diem? I have also heard that they might offer to split the cost of the type rating. ($27500).

Thank you
 
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There is no way on earth a 61.55 SIC type costs $28k.

If they can afford a citation they can afford to buy you a copy of the POH and three hops in the jet.
 
Ya. Don't pay a penny for a type rating. An SIC type is a joke anyways. The PIC initial is like 33k at FSI. Costs to them shouldn't be much more than 1k or so to get you 3 bounces.
 
Thank you for your responses guys.

I think i didn't explained myself very well. The CAE price was for a PIC type rating. What I meant to say is that they might take me on board as a SIC, do the 3 take offs and landings and get trained on company ops and aircraft systems before they send me to CAE or Flight training and decide to spend the big bucks. Money is not an issue for them, as other people has mentioned before on Part 91 ops and interviews is that what they are looking for is someone who fits within the family and company profile.

Any advice on what approach to do as far as compensation, relocation package or per diem?

Thank you,
 
2014 NBAA rates for a Sovereign FO is 63k average. 78 is high, 54 is low. As for contracting I can't imagine anything under 500/day but I have no experience in this type.
Again, do not pay a penny for even a PIC type. If they want you to pay for or split the cost of a PIC type, add that amount to your salary. So... 96k/year minimum at that point. If it's as a contract pilot only and you're responsible for your own recurrent, which is somewhat normal, make sure you put the cost of recurrent/initial into your daily rate. If 550/day is what you'd normally get, add 33,000 to that amortized over the expected days worked.
 
Who are the outfit? @Joshwa may have an opinion, but Flight Safety do know how to charge.

Let us know the type aircraft?

Alex.
 
ahw01 said:
Who are the outfit? @Joshwa may have an opinion, but Flight Safety do know how to charge.

Let us know the type aircraft?

Alex.
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It's a Citation sovereign. FS hasnt replied to my request of cost, availability and duration of training yet and its been over 2 weeks since I requested the info. CAE on the other hand where more customer service oriented and solved my quesitons right away.
 
z987k said:
2014 NBAA rates for a Sovereign FO is 63k average. 78 is high, 54 is low. As for contracting I can't imagine anything under 500/day but I have no experience in this type.
Again, do not pay a penny for even a PIC type. If they want you to pay for or split the cost of a PIC type, add that amount to your salary. So... 96k/year minimum at that point. If it's as a contract pilot only and you're responsible for your own recurrent, which is somewhat normal, make sure you put the cost of recurrent/initial into your daily rate. If 550/day is what you'd normally get, add 33,000 to that amortized over the expected days worked.
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I will try my best to avoid paying for training. Other interviewees were offered to split the cost of the TR but they were also Freelancers and independent contractors. this way the company assures that they won't leave after 6 months.
$550/day is what they are offering but take into account the currency exchange and the high cost of living in Europe.
they averaged 400hr/year in 2014 which translates also into a reasonable time off.

I am considering around $90k a year considering the high income tax they have.
 
McFly84 said:
I will try my best to avoid paying for training. Other interviewees were offered to split the cost of the TR but they were also Freelancers and independent contractors. this way the company assures that they won't leave after 6 months.
$550/day is what they are offering but take into account the currency exchange and the high cost of living in Europe.
they averaged 400hr/year in 2014 which translates also into a reasonable time off.

I am considering around $90k a year considering the high income tax they have.
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How many days a year?

Remember, they are operating an $18 million jet with fuel and mx bills higher per year than you'll likely make in a decade. They can afford to type you. It's the cost of operating an airplane.
 
Are they providing housing? Per diem on the road? Insurance? Any time off?

400 hours may not sound like much, but if you're doing it 1-2 hours every other day, with no time off, it'll induce burnout quickly.

Best of luck and let us know if you need help with things. I've been doing this for going on 6 1/2 years now.
 
I don't know the German corporate sector first hand, but there are a lot of stories about how cut-throat getting to the RHS is there. Nearly all private stuff I see about the place is N-reg or M-reg. For the first, your FAA papers will be OK, for the second, no problem getting your license validated (you just get a certificate that you carry with your licence for the particular aircraft). Rumours for salaries in Germany can be around €2500/month, which is not a lot. (for comparison, RHS similar type in the UK around €4500/month). The daily rate if you translate it to Euros looks reasonable to me.

If you don't have the rating and are looking for an RHS job, most European operators will ask you to pay for the rating, either up front or via a salary deduction and in general will offer you a contract at the same time. European insurers tend to ask for both crew to hold PIC type ratings (under EASA, the concept of an SIC rating doesn't exist). Certainly wouldn't do anything without a signed contract rather than just an agreement in principle. I'd also think seriously about the company's prospects at the moment and see what the situation would be if you were laid off. If you want to stay in Europe long term though, I would recommend getting an EASA licence. It's a right pain - 14 written exams that will take you about 6 months to do the study for if you know it all already, though the flight test I would imagine would be able to be combined with an LPC/LST at CAE, as all their European guys are dual rated.
 
With EASA licensing, though, on top of the tests and certifications, you have to have right to work, which is very difficult in Europe, from my understanding. Eastern Europe is a whole different ballgame, though.
 
ahw01 said:
awesome McFly84, that sounds like you have things under control...
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It might seem like I do have everything under control but I still hesitant and excited, which seems not be a good friend of patience. I will let you guys know how things turn out so we all get something out of these comments.
To be hones, I think I am over preparing myself for this interview.
 
z987k said:
How many days a year?

Remember, they are operating an $18 million jet with fuel and mx bills higher per year than you'll likely make in a decade. They can afford to type you. It's the cost of operating an airplane.
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Z987k, seems like you are pretty set on having the company pay for the Type. I agree with you. My concerns regards if its an industry standard to have you pay/split/share costs. unfortunately seems like it is but I will negotiate with them. thanks for your advice.
duty time per month is about 20 days which translates in to an average of 10-12 days from what I know from the phone interview. I take it as a both ways interview and I tend to ask many questions.
 
Stone Cold said:
Are they providing housing? Per diem on the road? Insurance? Any time off?

400 hours may not sound like much, but if you're doing it 1-2 hours every other day, with no time off, it'll induce burnout quickly.

Best of luck and let us know if you need help with things. I've been doing this for going on 6 1/2 years now.
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Per diem on the road is about $100USD and knowing myself and how frugal I am, It may translate in some extra cash although not much.
As replied earlier they average to have you fly kinda monday to friday which sounds good and that adds to the 20 days a month. I do not know about housing yet, its one of my questions for the personal interview(also very expensive in this city). Thanks for your help and encouragement. 6 1/2 years seems like you like the gig, are you also in Europe?
 
Joshwa said:
I don't know the German corporate sector first hand, but there are a lot of stories about how cut-throat getting to the RHS is there. Nearly all private stuff I see about the place is N-reg or M-reg. For the first, your FAA papers will be OK, for the second, no problem getting your license validated (you just get a certificate that you carry with your licence for the particular aircraft). Rumours for salaries in Germany can be around €2500/month, which is not a lot. (for comparison, RHS similar type in the UK around €4500/month). The daily rate if you translate it to Euros looks reasonable to me.

If you don't have the rating and are looking for an RHS job, most European operators will ask you to pay for the rating, either up front or via a salary deduction and in general will offer you a contract at the same time. European insurers tend to ask for both crew to hold PIC type ratings (under EASA, the concept of an SIC rating doesn't exist). Certainly wouldn't do anything without a signed contract rather than just an agreement in principle. I'd also think seriously about the company's prospects at the moment and see what the situation would be if you were laid off. If you want to stay in Europe long term though, I would recommend getting an EASA licence. It's a right pain - 14 written exams that will take you about 6 months to do the study for if you know it all already, though the flight test I would imagine would be able to be combined with an LPC/LST at CAE, as all their European guys are dual rated.
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Joshwa, you do point out a couple of good statements. Specially about what the company prospects are and about the layoff situation. I have been even considering of maybe signing up as an independent contractor in my home country but signed a contract stating I will solely work for them in that period if we both agree on the conditions. that way I wont get raped but the local IRS. Its just an idea.
As a European I am aware on how difficult things are over here, most of the times it doesn not even make sense. Sad but true. So far I am no looking forward to get my EASA license, I do not see the point, too much time and money.
About the salary, you are about right with those numbers.
Do you see a lot of N register planes over there? there might some options for flight instruction on the side that I have not considered.
 
Stone Cold said:
With EASA licensing, though, on top of the tests and certifications, you have to have right to work, which is very difficult in Europe, from my understanding. Eastern Europe is a whole different ballgame, though.
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I do have the right to work over here as I am European. Unfortunately my options are very narrow as there are not many N registered operators nor owners currently hiring. In the US my situation is the other way around, everything is N but not right to work. bummer.
 
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