Complaint about ATC

If you want a hilarious, sad and professionally somewhat embrassing radio tirade, pull up Omaha ground control for Sunday, November 23 approx 1500 and listen for an American FO complain about his hold for departure because of weather.

"There's not a cloud within TWO HUNDRED MILES of DFW. Check again, I'll call you back after my walk around".
 
I'm always interested to see threads like this, and I wish the Pilot/Controller forum was busier. @ntbjounin PA44totracon has given some good advice. Performance management is an abstract idea at my facility, but actual counseling or work to improve a particular knowledge gap is seldom seen unless the issue is pressed. I would always call in if you think you didn't receive good service. Sometimes you might not see "the big picture," as Autothrust jokes (sometimes it is true), but sometimes you have a legitimate complaint.

Sol Rosenburg said:
...Of those examples less than 10% are necessary but they feel they need to just have 10+ in trail for extraordinary buffer built in. I don't get mad at them on the radio but it still pisses me off. I find those super conservative controllers do thing the same way no matter what the situation since diverging from the published preferred routes is just the devil.
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Just a minor note here, and I'm not saying it was the case in your particular situation, but various letters of agreement at my facility require certain miles in trail over the same fix going into approach airspace, so if the guy behind you is quite a bit less than 10 MIT and overtaking, you've got to get 10 somehow. Someone's getting punished.

Seggy said:
I could only imagine the complaints ATCs have about pilots. Let's let this thread die.....quickly.
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You're right that it goes both ways, but I think it's a good thing to hash it out here. Keep it professional on the radio, but still get a consensus about your concerns.
 
Derg said:
If you want a hilarious, sad and professionally somewhat embrassing radio tirade, pull up Omaha ground control for Sunday, November 23 approx 1500 and listen for an American FO complain about his hold for departure because of weather.

"There's not a cloud within TWO HUNDRED MILES of DFW. Check again, I'll call you back after my walk around".
Click to expand...
Surely there is someone in their mom's basement right now that can just upload that and post it? That way I can go back to listening to my favorite song...
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
I'm always interested to see threads like this, and I wish the Pilot/Controller forum was busier. @ntbjounin PA44totracon has given some good advice. Performance management is an abstract idea at my facility, but actual counseling or work to improve a particular knowledge gap is seldom seen unless the issue is pressed. I would always call in if you think you didn't receive good service. Sometimes you might not see "the big picture," as Autothrust jokes (sometimes it is true), but sometimes you have a legitimate complaint.



Just a minor note here, and I'm not saying it was the case in your particular situation, but various letters of agreement at my facility require certain miles in trail over the same fix going into approach airspace, so if the guy behind you is quite a bit less than 10 MIT and overtaking, you've got to get 10 somehow. Someone's getting punished.



You're right that it goes both ways, but I think it's a good thing to hash it out here. Keep it professional on the radio, but still get a consensus about your concerns.
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Is there any where online a pilot can look up the LOA's each centers/appch has? I swear there must be a million of them between LA Center and Oakland. Every time we think we have it figured out and file what we think they'll want, bam "ready to copy reroute".
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
I'm always interested to see threads like this, and I wish the Pilot/Controller forum was busier. @ntbjounin PA44totracon has given some good advice. Performance management is an abstract idea at my facility, but actual counseling or work to improve a particular knowledge gap is seldom seen unless the issue is pressed. I would always call in if you think you didn't receive good service. Sometimes you might not see "the big picture," as Autothrust jokes (sometimes it is true), but sometimes you have a legitimate complaint.
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Great point! One of Delta's hubs, in the upper Midwest in the eastern time zone, loved to slow planes down at 11k then tell them to decend quickly. After some counseling they no longer seem to do it frequently as they understand you gotta keep the airspeed up in order to decend at a rate they feel is appropriate.
 
Derg said:
If you want a hilarious, sad and professionally somewhat embrassing radio tirade, pull up Omaha ground control for Sunday, November 23 approx 1500 and listen for an American FO complain about his hold for departure because of weather.

"There's not a cloud within TWO HUNDRED MILES of DFW. Check again, I'll call you back after my walk around".
Click to expand...
I usually say something to the effect of "Awwww!" when given an EDCT. Or, "Party foul." Or a complaint about paving the Bay.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Is there any where online a pilot can look up the LOA's each centers/appch has? I swear there must be a million of them between LA Center and Oakland. Every time we think we have it figured out and file what we think they'll want, bam "ready to copy reroute".
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the LOAs are only accessible online from a government computer. Not sure why that is, as obviously they're not really secret. I'll try to explain any of them you want, as I am in a particularly good position to do so for the example pair you've given. :cool:
 
Minuteman said:
So … why did they stop RVSM airspace at FL410?
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My guess is because that 30s area is where the mass amount of your air carrier traffic is flying, along with other civil traffic, and hence where the most benefit of RVSM would occur. Not a ton of people above 410.
 
Call 'em and ask. Every controller, pilot, FA, Dxer, A&P, airport manager, airline ops/gate/counter personnel and anything I'm forgetting on these boards has been wrong before. Miraculously, nobody on these boards was wrong in their own mind per incident 9 times out of 10 if I had to wager. Asking for the tapes cuts both ways though. I work with a controller who was going to put a coworker in for a save. "No way." said the old guy. "Last time someone did that A/C 2 got a FSDO visit and A/C 3 and 4 ended up being a loss of separation.

Also, if you do, don't be "that guy". I'll never forget an LCC guy demanding every ATC phone number since east Jesus on check in because he'd been slowed to 250 which had been LOA with center 3 weeks prior. He was slowed to follow a Medivac PC12. Guy subsequently quizzed me on why we had so many airplanes and informed me he could beat the guy in front (uhhh, k. maintain 400 or greater) I got an unable . You still want my number? No you're getting my number.
 
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