Union Responsibility

Bruce Wayne

Bruce Wayne

Member
Its no secret that regional airline first officer pay is horrible. It seems that most pilots that work for regional airlines are unionized. My question is, if these pilots are represented by a union why isn't the union stepping in to do anything since pilots have to pay union fees? Its been a problem that has been going on for a while. I don't know too much about this subject, so correct me if I am wrong.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Its no secret that regional airline first officer pay is horrible. It seems that most pilots that work for regional airlines are unionized. My question is, if these pilots are represented by a union why isn't the union stepping in to do anything since pilots have to pay union fees? Its been a problem that has been going on for a while. I don't know too much about this subject, so correct me if I am wrong.
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Do you know what we used to make? :)

<— started at $14,400 at Skyway Airlines
 
It takes time and effort. It's not automatic. It was so easy to get licensed to fly as a First Officer, years ago, that pay at the Regionals was not priority enough to protect against times like these. Don't assume that the "Union" is purely a service. It is not. It is a tool used to help a group make their job better. Many union volunteers are just like you and me.
 
Derg said:
Do you know what we used to make? :)

<— started at $14,400 at Skyway Airlines
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Adjusted for inflation there is no change :/

Works rules have likely changed quite a bit for the good though.


To the OP first year guys do not pay Union dues. ALPA actually paid for my loss of license and such in the first year as well.

Ultimately it comes down to what the people off probation are willing to give up for first year pay. There is a big
 
However, the idea of a commuter, whoops, regional pilot back in the 90's topping $100K at some point in their career was unheard of.

Of course that $100K/year regional job, today, was yesterday's $180K/year DC-9 mainline job yesterday, but it's made some tangible progress.
 
Derg said:
However, the idea of a commuter, whoops, regional pilot back in the 90's topping $100K at some point in their career was unheard of.

Of course that $100K/year regional job, today, was yesterday's $180K/year DC-9 mainline job yesterday, but it's made some tangible progress.
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Honest question, what was the avg time spent at a regional back then? Before being hired at a Legacy that is? Now I'd say it's 4 years on the low side, 10 years on the high side with some very notable exceptions of course. After 10 years, most end up being regional lifers it seems.
 
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Derg said:
Do you know what we used to make? :)

<— started at $14,400 at Skyway Airlines
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Back in the days when one would be a regional FO for 12-18 months, upgrade and be a CA for another 12-36 months, and be at a legacy airline in 5 years or less.

Derg said:
However, the idea of a commuter, whoops, regional pilot back in the 90's topping $100K at some point in their career was unheard of.

Of course that $100K/year regional job, today, was yesterday's $180K/year DC-9 mainline job yesterday, but it's made some tangible progress.
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This is true. The regional model was never suppose to be what it has turned out to be today.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Its no secret that regional airline first officer pay is horrible. It seems that most pilots that work for regional airlines are unionized. My question is, if these pilots are represented by a union why isn't the union stepping in to do anything since pilots have to pay union fees? Its been a problem that has been going on for a while. I don't know too much about this subject, so correct me if I am wrong.
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You are correct. The first problem is recognizing that regional flying is outsourced mainline flying, meaning less mainline jobs when a regional can fly an E170 from DFW to LGA. Then the second problem is the representation ALPA does, both mainline and regional. One's gain comes at the DIRECT expense of the welfare of the other. Period. We saw regional growth explode after 9/11, when majors furloughed, and regional airlines grew like crazy flying all over the country in 50-90 seater jets. Now, the tide is turning, and mainline is getting some scope back in terms of limitations, plus the cost of gas, and RJs are being parked by the dozens everywhere. Now you have the opposite, the regionals are stagnating while the majors are growing. That is a good thing, as more higher paying jobs become available and outsourced regional jobs wither away, but it's a pain for those ALPA-represented regional pilots who are on the short end of the stick this time.


I hated paying ALPA at a regional airline, but at my current LCC/Major employer, I'd vote yes to ALPA and wouldn't mind them representing me. The past was different, but today ALPA serves the best interests of the big dogs, not little ones.
 
One could play devils advocate and ask "What would 1st year FO pay be at regionals if there wasn't any Union?"

At the end of the day, sorry to say, the issue deals with people willing to do the job for the set pay. It is not rocket science to assume that if applications stopped tomorrow, pay would have to increase in order to attract the fewer number of applicants for the job. Management has already bumped up signing bonuses, "flow agreements," and the promise of quick upgrades to help get pilots to their airline. Sadly pilots go for this. IF they were to refuse these "carrots" by managements, Id have to assume that the increase in monetary compensation would have to come soon after.

The Union can not stop people from applying and trying to get hired for the low wage that is currently being offered. If unhappy about the low pay for First Officers, stop by a new hire indoc class and ask those in attendance why they sell their skills so cheaply on the open market.
 
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LaserRacer said:
Not always true... The IBT charges dues after three months.
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Serious question, what exactly has the IBT done to further the airline profession in the way ALPA, APA, and SWAPA have?

I was a teamster roofer in high school, so I am familiar with the typical knuckle dragger trades unionist.
 
The Juice said:
One could play devils advocate and ask "What would 1st year FO pay be at regionals if there wasn't any Union?"
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Market rate based on supply/demand. ALPA at my regional purposefully turned down a significant payraise for 1st and 2nd year FOs. Had there been no union, I would have made more for both of those years.

If unhappy about the low pay for First Officers, stop by a new hire indoc class and ask those in attendance why they sell their skills so cheaply on the open market.
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Because we both know this regional* job is a requirement to get the majors. If Delta, American, or United would hire at 250-1000 hrs, pilots wouldn't need regionals.




*sure, there are other ways like military, cargo, corporate, etc, but largely the regionals are the stepping stone to the majors.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

;)
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May as well. JetBlue was the one hope that non-union could work. But long term it seems to just get worse with time. My biggest thing (despite being completely hosed before in a merger) is ALPA for merger protection. At least we'd get a seat at the table. I honestly don't see current Co. as stand-alone in the next 5-10 years. My best guess would be jetBlue. Now that they are ALPA, it's about time.
 
I may be of the contrarian opinion here, but first year pay at any carrier is not the responsibility of the union. The work group who has committed themselves to their employer should not be forced to give up negotiating capital to help the company, and that's exactly what increasing first year pay does. If the company can't fill classes because their first year pay is too low, then they can come to the union and address everyone's pay scale.
 
Well, there's nothing wrong with an increase in first year pay. As long as everyone else at various levels of seniority get a commensurate raise.

The problem is management just wants to increase first year pay.
 
Derg said:
However, the idea of a commuter, whoops, regional pilot back in the 90's topping $100K at some point in their career was unheard of.

Of course that $100K/year regional job, today, was yesterday's $180K/year DC-9 mainline job yesterday, but it's made some tangible progress.
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You mean we wouldn't have been making $100K had we taken that Mesa Airlines C-208 Caravan job, or the Golden Pacific Airlines C-402 gig?
 
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