Regional help.
- Thread starter dnov27
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Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
Ah yes, the Japanese Vaporware Jet.But, but we are getting MRJs!
(nothing wrong with Japanese airplanes, or vaporware, for that matter, just how I see it at the moment.)
desertdog71
Girthy Member
He has offers at other places and hasn't interviewed here. First get the offers then decide from there.
I won't get into the drama about this place. They are adding planes and hiring a ton of people. If you're looking for a quick upgrade you are probably too late since we're nearing 800 pilots now. 47 planes now and adding 30. You can do the math on that.
Advantage to you is that it's nearby and nobody wants DAY for a base. I stay here because I'm fairly senior in base and like the crews. Most guys bolt for CLT at the first chance.
You get cancellation pay, premium pay for open time, schedule adjustment period is awesome and the crews are great. Other than that it's a pretty standard regional and they all suck.
I won't steer you one way or another, that's for you to decide. I came here because they offered me a job with no strings attached (training contracts etc.)
Best of luck on your decision.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Some food for thought:
In 2005 I got hired at a place that was losing, IIRC, 18 out of 98 airplanes (so roughly 20% of their fleet). That was a surplus of around 200 pilots. They also lost their major feed and signed a deal with a new company for just the RJs they had. At the interview they told me 6-8 years for upgrade they thought.
I upgraded in 30 months. Of course, there were extenuating circumstances. For one the majors started hiring a lot of guys and two they closed down all their major domiciles and a lot of guys just flat out quit.
In 2012 US Airways started really picking up the hiring but a lot of folks turned up their nose and didn't even apply. I know one guy who turned down the job because he lived in DFW (ouch). Well less than a year later the guys who rolled the dice got rewarded - minimal time on reserve, tons of new hires to follow, and large pay raises with more to come. They essentially won the lottery (IMO). People who waited to apply after the merger saw much longer wait times for interviews due to the competition ratcheting up. In that year some 300 guys were hired, a significant amount. I fly with guys that told me a one year difference in hiring here has meant the difference of upgrading at 5 years or never upgrading!! That is HUGE money.
I guess my point is, sometimes going to the place that has, on paper, a bleak outlook pays off. Going to the "hot" places might bite you as it did the Republic guys who were staring down a 2 year upgrade that are still F/Os 7 years later. Two years ago Mesa had 10 year F/Os and now they have an 18 month upgrade.
While upgrading to CA isn't the only way to a major carrier it accounts for the lions share of those who do move on, accompanies an almost 2x pay raise, and also allows for you to move into the training department as a line check airman which also is a huge check box (unless you want to work for AA, which apparently wants to see astronaut and fighter pilot time (no joke, those check boxes were on their app)).
All the 3 you have listed the only place I wouldn't even consider is ASA/XJT, IMO they have been a sinking ship for a while. They probably won't disappear completely but they will be downsized and don't have any sort of guaranteed flow like Eagle does.
Don't worry what others are writing about companies. Eagle guys hate PSA guys. PDT vs PSA. TSA vs Gojets. Mesa vs. everyone. Nobody gives a flip outside a select few who live at home in their parents basement posting on web boards. Everyone doing the interviewing at the major level is HR and 30 year chief pilots who don't even know who the companies fly for...
Also look at TSA.
In 2005 I got hired at a place that was losing, IIRC, 18 out of 98 airplanes (so roughly 20% of their fleet). That was a surplus of around 200 pilots. They also lost their major feed and signed a deal with a new company for just the RJs they had. At the interview they told me 6-8 years for upgrade they thought.
I upgraded in 30 months. Of course, there were extenuating circumstances. For one the majors started hiring a lot of guys and two they closed down all their major domiciles and a lot of guys just flat out quit.
In 2012 US Airways started really picking up the hiring but a lot of folks turned up their nose and didn't even apply. I know one guy who turned down the job because he lived in DFW (ouch). Well less than a year later the guys who rolled the dice got rewarded - minimal time on reserve, tons of new hires to follow, and large pay raises with more to come. They essentially won the lottery (IMO). People who waited to apply after the merger saw much longer wait times for interviews due to the competition ratcheting up. In that year some 300 guys were hired, a significant amount. I fly with guys that told me a one year difference in hiring here has meant the difference of upgrading at 5 years or never upgrading!! That is HUGE money.
I guess my point is, sometimes going to the place that has, on paper, a bleak outlook pays off. Going to the "hot" places might bite you as it did the Republic guys who were staring down a 2 year upgrade that are still F/Os 7 years later. Two years ago Mesa had 10 year F/Os and now they have an 18 month upgrade.
While upgrading to CA isn't the only way to a major carrier it accounts for the lions share of those who do move on, accompanies an almost 2x pay raise, and also allows for you to move into the training department as a line check airman which also is a huge check box (unless you want to work for AA, which apparently wants to see astronaut and fighter pilot time (no joke, those check boxes were on their app)).
All the 3 you have listed the only place I wouldn't even consider is ASA/XJT, IMO they have been a sinking ship for a while. They probably won't disappear completely but they will be downsized and don't have any sort of guaranteed flow like Eagle does.
Don't worry what others are writing about companies. Eagle guys hate PSA guys. PDT vs PSA. TSA vs Gojets. Mesa vs. everyone. Nobody gives a flip outside a select few who live at home in their parents basement posting on web boards. Everyone doing the interviewing at the major level is HR and 30 year chief pilots who don't even know who the companies fly for...
Also look at TSA.
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dnov27
New Member
I'm hoping to make it to a major! Probably should have included that in the original post!
dnov27
New Member
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Seems like 90% of selecting the right regional is luck. I see the point about it possibly being too late at a few of the "go to" places right now I might get trapped behind the quick upgrade folks. Which of course is what I am trying to avoid. This of course leads me to my next point about going somewhere that I would be able to make a livable wage if the industry took a turn for the worse and I got stuck as an FO for an extremely long time.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
I will just jump in and say don't go to XJT. All-around bad career move at this point.
Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
With the usual cautions about chasing the upgrade, of course. To quote G-man, "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world."
(I'm not sure why I quoted that, but it does seem to fit.)
"Extremely long time?" Define "extremely long time." My Dad was hired in December, 1978 and upgraded to the left seat of the Boeing 727-200 in 1997. If anyone is curious, that's a 19 year upgrade.A few airline pilot lines of advice:
* Bid what you want
* Want what you're awarded
* Kick butt at whatever crewmember position you're in!
* Be prepared to sit in your seat for a good while when (not if) the music stops. (I'm not stuck. I like what I do.)
* Commute responsibly (or not at all, if you can avoid it)
* Be bold
* (but) Be careful about lateral moves (I did one, I can give you details, haven't looked back at all)
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
With the usual cautions about chasing the upgrade, of course. To quote G-man, "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world."
(I'm not sure why I quoted that, but it does seem to fit.)
A few airline pilot lines of advice:
* Bid what you want
* Want what you're awarded
* Kick butt at whatever crewmember position you're in!
* Be prepared to sit in your seat for a good while when (not if) the music stops. (I'm not stuck. I like what I do.)
* Commute responsibly (or not at all, if you can avoid it)
* Be bold
* (but) Be careful about lateral moves (I did one, I can give you details, haven't looked back at all)
Well, their pay is good, their equipment is good, their partner airline seems to like them, and the crews seem pretty happy. Plus, they're ALPA, which suddenly seems to be an asset for job opportunities at the majors. Movement has to count for something. Waiting around for too long at our airline could put us in a funny spot. I'm not thinking about jumping ship, but all the guys that apparently plan on retiring here is starting to annoy me slightly.
Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
Yer' tellin' me. Although I went up another 10 numbers this week.
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
I sat next to a guy in my CRJ class that was from Wisconsin and had been hired and nearly done with training with Air Wisconsin when he got the call from Utah. He bailed out and ended up based in Fresno for a while but he said it was a better deal overall. I can't recall any specifics, but I think the concern was overall being a smaller operation.
FWIW, I haven't personally known any people that regarded that airline very highly. Conversely, I haven't heard much negative either like I have from other places.
Freecos
Well-Known Member
Latest update on seniority is 738
Autothrust Blue
”…trusting ze process…”
The difference between myself a year ago and myself now is that I realize I'm wasn't ready to sit in the left seat a year ago, and I make no warranty, express or implied, that I am ready to sit there now. I think I'm more ready than I was, though. Again, this upgrade-chase goat-rope makes us hyenas; the old man had 19 years (5 of them on furlough) to wait.
This is an apprenticeship in some ways: under the supervision and direction of the Captain, you learn things that you can't possibly be taught or put on the syllabus by Flight Standards. (Including, sometimes, What Not To Do.)
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HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forums, congrats on the job offers and options! Boy has the industry changed, in 2010 there were 15,000 hr guys chomping at the bit for any regional job paying 22k/yr! Now the situation is completely reversed!
That said, I scanned through the thread briefly and I didn't see anybody mentioning Compass. You said your in DTW and CVG? Compass has a base in Detriot. They just got awarded that 'merican flying so they're expanding so you should have a shot at upgrading in a reasonable amount of time. Be careful chasing the fastest upgrade, but this one seems to have a balance with the flows going to Delta and you can live in base and not commute in the meantime. They also have a decent contract (besides the first yr pay and per diem.) Perhaps you should consider applying?
Problem with XJT, AE, SKYW, RAH and friends is that they've grown so big over the years they're actually contracting. They have a lot of pilots and attrition is starting to hit equally across the list. I was one of many RAH FO's that have bailed as rapidly as the mid level to junior Captains. Each of the above regionals still has a core group of 15-30% of CAs that are senior and will never leave.The upgrade is longer, 4-7 years which in turn is frustrating even more junior people and causing them to bail which is exactly the opposite what is needed for a quick upgrade. At the regional level, getting more flying is only half the battle, they need to hire more FOs to fill seats and cover flying. Common sense would dictate upgrading extra Captains and have them sit in either seat to be a CA mostly airline. Problem is, the regional model is designed run on tight margins and the cheapest labor possible so the increased labor cost would swallow up that margin. It appears right now it is actually more cost effective for them to decrease flying, park the gas guzzling 50 seaters, reduce revenue and maintain said profit margin for the share-holders. Then they're turning around and trying get the ATP rule rescinded like BB is doing, so they don't have to play by the basic rules of economics like supply vs. demand vs. pay.
It seems that mainline carriers have relaxed the 1,000TPIC requirement a bit but, there are still thousands of regional CAs in the system that are over-qualified. It would probably be a safe bet to go somewhere that you could get some jet PIC experience yourself in a reasonable time frame. Think 2-3 years, vs 4-10 at Eagle, RAH, or Xjet (who is hemoraging money).
At least that's where the goal post is right now anyways. Good Luck!
EDIT: looks like @jynxyjoe also mentioned Compass as well...
That said, I scanned through the thread briefly and I didn't see anybody mentioning Compass. You said your in DTW and CVG? Compass has a base in Detriot. They just got awarded that 'merican flying so they're expanding so you should have a shot at upgrading in a reasonable amount of time. Be careful chasing the fastest upgrade, but this one seems to have a balance with the flows going to Delta and you can live in base and not commute in the meantime. They also have a decent contract (besides the first yr pay and per diem.) Perhaps you should consider applying?
Problem with XJT, AE, SKYW, RAH and friends is that they've grown so big over the years they're actually contracting. They have a lot of pilots and attrition is starting to hit equally across the list. I was one of many RAH FO's that have bailed as rapidly as the mid level to junior Captains. Each of the above regionals still has a core group of 15-30% of CAs that are senior and will never leave.The upgrade is longer, 4-7 years which in turn is frustrating even more junior people and causing them to bail which is exactly the opposite what is needed for a quick upgrade. At the regional level, getting more flying is only half the battle, they need to hire more FOs to fill seats and cover flying. Common sense would dictate upgrading extra Captains and have them sit in either seat to be a CA mostly airline. Problem is, the regional model is designed run on tight margins and the cheapest labor possible so the increased labor cost would swallow up that margin. It appears right now it is actually more cost effective for them to decrease flying, park the gas guzzling 50 seaters, reduce revenue and maintain said profit margin for the share-holders. Then they're turning around and trying get the ATP rule rescinded like BB is doing, so they don't have to play by the basic rules of economics like supply vs. demand vs. pay.
It seems that mainline carriers have relaxed the 1,000TPIC requirement a bit but, there are still thousands of regional CAs in the system that are over-qualified. It would probably be a safe bet to go somewhere that you could get some jet PIC experience yourself in a reasonable time frame. Think 2-3 years, vs 4-10 at Eagle, RAH, or Xjet (who is hemoraging money).
At least that's where the goal post is right now anyways. Good Luck!
EDIT: looks like @jynxyjoe also mentioned Compass as well...
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BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
This boggles my mind. I was number 425 when I was hired there in 2005. I think I highest number I saw between then and 2013 when I left was 450.
I think we had one or two 767 captains in their 20s. I know we have a few on the 717.
Compass is probably the number 1 destination right now as regional airlines go for a newbie to go to. Of course that can change in a moments notice. And it's not all rosy either, it just happens to suck the least. These regional airlines have no shame. Regional airline management have no pride in themselves. Imagine a group of pilots in this forum debating on which regional airline sucks the least. What does that say about Regional airline management and the companies they represent who let these kinds of things go on?
But Compass wasn't on your list. If you read the forums on a different site, you will see that the pilots from each of the carriers on your list are basically begging you for your own good not to come. Imagine further, a group of pilots BEGGING you not to come to their airline, for YOUR own good! Each one claims to have the worst airline! What kind of places are these anyways?
Back to your 3.
Envoy? Forget it. They are about to implode. Massive pilot loss coming from the bottom of the seniority list. Management spanked the pilots by giving their airplanes away because they would not accept pay cuts in the wake of record profits. It is widely believed that the airline will go under as the cost of labor continues to escalate to unsustainable levels as the lowest paid employees leave the airline leaving the high labor costs in place. There are 9-10 year FO's at Envoy, ready for that kind of wait? And the pilots are only concerning themselves with new jets?? I mean its not even expansion, just replacement jets??
RAH? One of the 3 airlines under the Republic umbrella is not going to survive. It's not been made clear by management which one is to go but one will go. Whether that means sell to someone else or fold it altogether is unknown. Republic is generally known to have the worst contract in the industry making quality of life very difficult and stressful. Long upgrade times here too.
I would say of the 3, XJT is probably your best bet although its not pretty here. Waring pilot groups! Nasty union stuff too between the 2 'factions'.
PS- I would reconsider PSA as I re-read this post. Hey PSA pilots- you are not regarded well in the industry. Envoy, Republic and a few others were really trying to put something together to stop the whip sawing effect and PSA comes in blows it up, thinking only of themselves and not other pilots. Imagine, entire groups of pilots finally coming to together and putting something really big together for the good of the group only to have PSA walk in and destroy it. PSA might be career suicide. Don't forget, pilots sit on the hiring boards of some Major Airlines. Years from now, pilots flying at these regionals will be the same pilots sitting on the hiring boards at the majors.
But Compass wasn't on your list. If you read the forums on a different site, you will see that the pilots from each of the carriers on your list are basically begging you for your own good not to come. Imagine further, a group of pilots BEGGING you not to come to their airline, for YOUR own good! Each one claims to have the worst airline! What kind of places are these anyways?
Back to your 3.
Envoy? Forget it. They are about to implode. Massive pilot loss coming from the bottom of the seniority list. Management spanked the pilots by giving their airplanes away because they would not accept pay cuts in the wake of record profits. It is widely believed that the airline will go under as the cost of labor continues to escalate to unsustainable levels as the lowest paid employees leave the airline leaving the high labor costs in place. There are 9-10 year FO's at Envoy, ready for that kind of wait? And the pilots are only concerning themselves with new jets?? I mean its not even expansion, just replacement jets??
RAH? One of the 3 airlines under the Republic umbrella is not going to survive. It's not been made clear by management which one is to go but one will go. Whether that means sell to someone else or fold it altogether is unknown. Republic is generally known to have the worst contract in the industry making quality of life very difficult and stressful. Long upgrade times here too.
I would say of the 3, XJT is probably your best bet although its not pretty here. Waring pilot groups! Nasty union stuff too between the 2 'factions'.
PS- I would reconsider PSA as I re-read this post. Hey PSA pilots- you are not regarded well in the industry. Envoy, Republic and a few others were really trying to put something together to stop the whip sawing effect and PSA comes in blows it up, thinking only of themselves and not other pilots. Imagine, entire groups of pilots finally coming to together and putting something really big together for the good of the group only to have PSA walk in and destroy it. PSA might be career suicide. Don't forget, pilots sit on the hiring boards of some Major Airlines. Years from now, pilots flying at these regionals will be the same pilots sitting on the hiring boards at the majors.
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