Flight logging

M

m77y

Well-Known Member
I am new to the 121 world and I'm a little confused as to what time I should be logging. Half the captains I talk to log from the second we start pushing and others do it once were moving under our own power. Whats the proper way and what does everyone else do?
 
m77y said:
I am new to the 121 world and I'm a little confused as to what time I should be logging. Half the captains I talk to log from the second we start pushing and others do it once were moving under our own power. Whats the proper way and what does everyone else do?
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It would be incredibly tedious to write down when you move the airplane forward under it's own power every single time.
 
I log from out to in. I figure that I am responsible for the airplane that entire time so that is the time that I log.
 
FAR 1.1 defines flight time as, from "when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." Or, as the Chief Counsel's office put it more than 30 years ago, "Flight time, as defined in Part 1 of the FAR, means "block-to-block" time."

Sounds reasonable and AFAIK, what most do.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
FAR 1.1 defines flight time as, from "when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." Or, as the Chief Counsel's office put it more than 30 years ago, "Flight time, as defined in Part 1 of the FAR, means "block-to-block" time."

Sounds reasonable and AFAIK, what most do.
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Did they actually say block to block?
 
By the FAR's definition, interpreted completely literally, your start time would be when you push the levers forward, but your end time could include being towed into the gate.
 
z987k said:
Did they actually say block to block?
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I'm sure MidlifeFlyer will do a better job of answering than I will, but as I look for the answer to your question I find a whole lot of times when the legal interpretations use the phrase "block to block", but they do a lousy job of defining a "block". Here is what John Lynch wrote in the old FAQ's long ago with coordination from the legal folks. It still doesn't talk specifically about the time being pushed back, but it is worded in a much simpler way.

QUESTION: Some time ago I wrote looking for input on § 1.1 that defines “pilot flight time”. I said that some of our pilots claimed “flight time” included start, warm-up, taxi, run-up, and further taxi (all under the assumption that this time is “for the purpose of flight”) while the purists in the group claimed that flight time didn't even start until power was applied at the end of the runway.

After we get to § 1.1, does flight time include start, warm-up, taxi to the run-up area, further taxi to the runway, etc. or does “moving under its own power for the purpose of flight” begin only when the aircraft is lined up on the centerline beginning its take-off roll? The argument, of course, is that since most GA aircraft begin charging for the airplane once the engine starts, most pilots have decided to log what they pay for. But there is another group of pilots who say that warm-up and taxi time is not flight time. Has the FAA explained the definition we find in § 1.1?

ANSWER: Ref. § 1.1 and § 61.51; It means “. . . when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing . . .” Or, the more commonly referred definition is “Block-to-Block” time. The following has been checked and verified with General Counsel, AGC-240:

Start up: No, you can not log that as flight time.

Warm-up: No, you can not log that as flight time if the aircraft has not yet moved from the parking location.

Taxi: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

Run-up: Yes, you can log that time. After all, attempted flight without run-up could appear careless & reckless.

Further taxi to the runway, etc.: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

The aircraft moves out onto the runway, throttle up to takeoff power, and begins the takeoff roll: Obviously, yes, you can log that as flight time.

Landing and roll out: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

Taxi in to parking: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

Engine Shut Down: No you can not log that as flight time after the airplane is in a parking position.
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z987k said:
Did they actually say block to block?
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Yep. They actually use the phrase "block to block." Many times.

1980 Chesnick letter (too old to be in the online database): "Flight time" is defined in FAR Part 1.1 as the moment from which the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until the moment it comes to rest at the next point of landing ("Block-to-block" time).

2012 Laurion letter: Note that the term "flight" as used in § 121.628(a)(2) is not synonymous with "flight time" (i.e., "block to block" time), but rather refers to when the aircraft has left the earth's surface. (my emphasis)

Plenty of times in between those two. It also appears in other FAA publications.
 
Which is dumb, because block to block is door close / parking brake off to parking brake on /door open. At least in my aircraft. So the FAA is contradicting itself. Why am I not surprised?
 
cencal83406 said:
Which is dumb, because block to block is door close / parking brake off to parking brake on /door open. At least in my aircraft. So the FAA is contradicting itself. Why am I not surprised?
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Close counts and the brake off door closed method is consistent. That's all the feds are looking for.
 
FWIW, in our contract we get are supposed to get payed when the aircraft gets moved under its own power, but actually get payed when the door closes and brake releases (ie block to block). Go figure?
 
Block to block isn't consistent between different carriers. Some it's brake release, some door closed, some pushback. Out/in is easily tracked and verified though via company records and I like my logs to match those records.
 
cencal83406 said:
Which is dumb, because block to block is door close / parking brake off to parking brake on /door open. At least in my aircraft. So the FAA is contradicting itself. Why am I not surprised?
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How is the FAA contradicting itself? I'm not aware of anything from the FAA that uses "block-to-block" with a meaning other than "flight time" as defined by FAR 1.1. All they are doing is adopting a non-regulatory term commonly used to describe a regulatory one.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
How is the FAA contradicting itself? I'm not aware of anything from the FAA that uses "block-to-block" with a meaning other than "flight time" as defined by FAR 1.1. All they are doing is adopting a non-regulatory term commonly used to describe a regulatory one.
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1980 Chesnick letter (too old to be in the online database): "Flight time" is defined in FAR Part 1.1 as the moment from which the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until the moment it comes to rest at the next point of landing ("Block-to-block" time).
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It doesn't matter, honestly, but, here it states that flight time is started when the aircraft first moves under its own power.

I probably have quite a few hours logged that involve blocking out, and waiting for 5-15 minutes for a tug to attach, then push us out. Even when the engines are started, we haven't yet moved under our own power.

So, what you referenced there, am I to understand that technically that is not flight time?

Or is the FAA considering that for airline operations, block to block, despite not meeting the 1.1 criteria 100%, is "close enough"?
 
You misunderstand. The formal definition is the one in FAR 1.1 - under its own power. There is no regulatory definition of "block to block." The way the FAA is using the term, "block - block" is a shorthand for the time it "moves under its own power." Doesn't suddenly make "moves under its own power" mean "pulled by a tug."

"Dual" is not a regulatory word. "Dual" means "flight training given." That doesn't mean "flight training given" suddenly means ground instruction because you or your company call your ground program "dual."
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You misunderstand. The formal definition is the one in FAR 1.1 - under its own power. There is no regulatory definition of "block to block." The way the FAA is using the term, "block - block" is a shorthand for the time it "moves under its own power." Doesn't suddenly make "moves under its own power" mean "pulled by a tug."

"Dual" is not a regulatory word. "Dual" means "flight training given." That doesn't mean "flight training given" suddenly means ground instruction because you or your company call your ground program "dual."
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No, I understand perfectly. They are using industry vernacular incorrectly.

The answer is: technically, I cannot log flight time until the engines have started and we are taxiing.

No airline pilot does that though. We all log block to block based on door close. Our ACARS ties ours specifically to parking brake and door.

I will continue to log flight time from ACARS "block out" to ACARS "block in". No reason to change when I've done it that way for the last 4200 hours.
 
cencal83406 said:
No, I understand perfectly. They are using industry vernacular incorrectly.

The answer is: technically, I cannot log flight time until the engines have started and we are taxiing.

No airline pilot does that though. We all log block to block based on door close. Our ACARS ties ours specifically to parking brake and door.

I will continue to log flight time from ACARS "block out" to ACARS "block in". No reason to change when I've done it that way for the last 4200 hours.
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I assume you're logging under company rules to get paid and/or for flight duty time calculations, which makes sense, and that, at this point in your career, you are no longer logging for any FAA certificate or currency purpose.
 
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