What's the Point of a Union at (Regional/Major/Etc.)

MikeD said:
Is this a matter of one FSDO being screwed up when it comes to this, or is this a matter of different FSDOs not exercising any kind of "standardization" when it comes to this?
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FSDO's aren't standard at all. Here's an example:

When XJT was in the Houston FSDO, the de-icing program allowed wings and tail only to be sprayed with type I fluid to remove frost in the morning. As soon as XJT went over to the Atlanta FSDO, this practice was abolished.

After 15 years of spraying wings and tail only for frost removal, was XJT being unsafe? Not likely.

But somebody in the Atlanta FSDO had a bug up their butt about having the entire aircraft be clean.

No skin off my back either way, but there's no standardization.
 
Seggy said:
Isn't it hypocritical to be making a statement like this when you love to get on a soapbox about making absolute statements?

Things aren't always black and white when you are dealing with the FAA. Especially considering not all FSDOs think the same. I know you did say 'admittedly....', but you absolution you could have resolved the issues is what you hate for others to say.
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I'm not saying that it's impossible, but the company has a lot of influence in situations like that.

Not much is impossible. Exceeding the speed of light is said to be impossible...but maybe even that will have an exception that we haven't discovered yet.
 
jtrain609 said:
FSDO's aren't standard at all. Here's an example:

When XJT was in the Houston FSDO, the de-icing program allowed wings and tail only to be sprayed with type I fluid to remove frost in the morning. As soon as XJT went over to the Atlanta FSDO, this practice was abolished.

After 15 years of spraying wings and tail only for frost removal, was XJT being unsafe? Not likely.

But somebody in the Atlanta FSDO had a bug up their butt about having the entire aircraft be clean.

No skin off my back either way, but there's no standardization.
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Agreed. There was a bit of a peeing contest that went on between the two FSDOs. Stories to be shared over a beer, and not on a public forum.
 
jtrain609 said:
I don't work at ExpressJet, and I'm not in the training department, and I've been informed that I should leave things to experts, of which I've been informed I am not, so I cannot confirm nor deny what rumors I have heard, nor speak to their veracity.

In fact, you're arguing with the expert that was in the safety department when this all happened and trying to cite to me, a line pilot. That makes as much sense as citing Todd on, well, anything.

As much as you two hate each other, maybe you should listen to the expert on the issue. Which is @PhilosopherPilot and not me.
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I'm interested to know the rumors. I hadn't heard a word about that, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the change came down from our training house not the FAA.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Whatever dude. You know everything. We should just bow to your awesomeness, and take your word for everything.
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I know, right? I should crawl back in my hole of ignorance…what could I possibly know of the world? I mean GET OFF MY LAWN WHIPPERSNAPPER…oh yeah that' what the kids like to throw around when the older folks don't just jump in line with them in youthful exuberance.

Funny thing I have learned, the older I get, those older guys had a bit of a clue…but it takes maturity to get to that point. (oh it took me awhile, I was a late bloomer)
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Whatever dude. You know everything. We should just bow to your awesomeness, and take your word for everything.
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Just out of curiosity how can you (and @Bumblebee) discount what I am saying here? I have no doubt in my mind that some FSDOs are more open to company suggestions than others. However, you automatically assume I don't know what I am talking about because what I said was different than what you think.

Now, if you tried to influence the Washington FSDO like you did the Atlanta FSDO, you as the company aren't going to get anywhere. Someone else on here has that similar experience. I am sure their company thought they can 'take care of things' and influence things directly with the FSDO. They had to move their operating certificate to correct that problem.
 
Seggy said:
Just out of curiosity how can you (and @Bumblebee) discount what I am saying here? I have no doubt in my mind that some FSDOs are more open to company suggestions than others. However, you automatically assume I don't know what I am talking about because what I said was different than what you think.

Now, if you tried to influence the Washington FSDO like you did the Atlanta FSDO, you as the company aren't going to get anywhere. Someone else on here has that similar experience. I am sure their company thought they can 'take care of things' and influence things directly with the FSDO. They had to move their operating certificate to correct that problem.
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It's just your general demeanor. I don't assume anything about your experience, and I'm sure you have valuable experience to share. But other people on here also have valuable experience.
 
I've been reading your posts for well over a decade between here and FI. You've always despised ALPA, before Seggy and I had anything to do with it. Nice history rewrite, though.
 
DE727UPS said:
I never used to hate ALPA until Seggy and ATN. They don't represent well. But it is what it is. We must remember the 1 percent rule. To those on the fence with ALPA, there is a lot more to it than what you see at Jetcareers. I think....
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My experiences with ALPA have been mixed, and more negative than positive. I'm a yes vote in our election in spite of all of that, but it is a hard pill to swallow. I just hope we don't regret it.

There are a BUNCH of yes votes who plan to vote in ALPA, get everything all set up, then vote them out in exchange for an in-house union. I think that's a bit underhanded (and difficult to pull off), but I understand the motivation. I wish this vote were for an in-house. It would pass by a landslide.

The ATN/Seggy attitude is far too prevalent at ALPA for my taste. You're right, it is what it is. Luckily, it's a democratic process, and if enough people are engaged the jackwagons will have a hard time gaining a foothold. Our ALPA will only be as good as the people we elect, and we need an active pilot group to be sure it is effective.
 
Bumblebee said:
w
because it's not good for him
I agree…you can show someone over and over that something is a fact and yet they won't admit it.

Never did I say it was a preferred way to do these programs without unions…

not once

There was no point where I said it was the best practice…

not once

I merely stated that there was an inaccuracy in Seggy's assertion that you must have a union to manage these programs…


The AC provides for these programs to be operated without unions and that is an indisputable fact.
There are programs being run effectively without unions and that is an indisputable fact.


If you don't want to be called out for over reaching, then don't overreach.
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A few things.

First, I know ALPA has their issues.

Secondly, When you say I am 'drinking the kool aide' you are ignoring quite a few facts.

Look how lucrative ALPA negotiated contracts has been toward's the Colgan Pilots since we voted ALPA in on property. Guys who are working under a bankruptcy contract are making more than they would have been if we stayed non-unionized. As a matter of fact, if we stay non-unionized Colgan guys would probably be out of jobs. Now, guys are getting jobs at Delta thanks to an ALPA Negotiated Agreement for interviews, that probably wouldn't have had a chance without this agreement. Other folks have been protected thanks to the ASAP/FOQA Programs we have been put in place.

So cut the the rhetoric that I am 'drinking the kool aid'. Yes, there are issues with ALPA, but the benefits have far outweighed any issues. Those are the indisputable facts.

Thirdly, if you want to do these programs properly (and shouldn't you want to do safety programs properly?) you need a union in place.

Bumblebee said:
I know, right? I should crawl back in my hole of ignorance…what could I possibly know of the world? I mean GET OFF MY LAWN WHIPPERSNAPPER…oh yeah that' what the kids like to throw around when the older folks don't just jump in line with them in youthful exuberance.
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Fourthly, I find it disturbing that you 'dressed' me down earlier in this thread like I am on the football field or in basic training and you are some coach or drill sergeant. YOU are the one trying to make an argument that we are not all equals on this website. Well, guess what we are all equal! If you are a student pilot or a 747 Pilot, we all are equals in the way we want to learn and further our aviation knowledge. When a poster (no matter who they are) is saying something that is missing a point, I am going to speak up, like would out flying an airplane in a crew environment if I saw a mistake was going to be made. Instead of taking it constructively, I was told, among other things, 'well I have been doing this longer than myself, so I should be quiet'. Once again, REALLY??? When I was a check airman giving IOE, I ALWAYS made it a point to tell the student that, 'hey, if you see me doing something you are unsure of PLEASE question, what I am doing'. It didn't matter I had a few thousand hours in the airplane and the student had none, I wanted to make sure that the student was comfortable in bringing up any concerns and that I trusted them to question what I was doing. So instead of saying, 'well you know, I may have a point here', you continue to dress me down and tell me to get off the lawn.


Funny thing I have learned, the older I get, those older guys had a bit of a clue…but it takes maturity to get to that point. (oh it took me awhile, I was a late bloomer) Yet, you still continue to do this.
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Don't question my maturity Dale. I hope that is a poor word choice like I did earlier in this thread.

We all have a clue. When I was Captain, I used to tell jumpseaters that may not have one hour of Q400 time that if they 'see anything they should speak up'. Same concept applies here. It doesn't matter if one is older. We are all equals that can learn from one another. Don't quantify it that age or time matters. It really doesn't.
 
Look how lucrative ALPA negotiated contracts has been toward's the Colgan Pilots since we voted ALPA in on property. Guys who are working under a bankruptcy contract are making more than they would have been if we stayed non-unionized. As a matter of fact, if we stay non-unionized Colgan guys would probably be out of jobs. Now, guys are getting jobs at Delta thanks to an ALPA Negotiated Agreement for interviews, that probably wouldn't have had a chance without this agreement. Other folks have been protected thanks to the ASAP/FOQA Programs we have been put in place.
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Nice revisionist history. Colgan expanded with tons of Qs all while initially non-union. Pinnalce pilots were ALPA and were displaced and downgraded meanwhile Colgan was awarded huge amounts of Q400 flying. Lucrative Colgan ALPA contract? Ha. That crap operation was entirely non-union and grown as a non-union machine while Pinnalce ALPA pilots were told they were too expensive and the ALPA proposed contract would bankrupt the company. Complete union-busting moves and 100% BS. In fact, 9E pilots actually got an award to proceed with single list status but then the same guy overturned that decision.

"Had we stayed non-union Colgan would be out of jobs"..... absolutely yes. If your airline runs out of planes it flies, then yeah, usually that means you become jobless. Not in the case of Colgan.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Nice revisionist history. Colgan expanded with tons of Qs all while initially non-union.
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Even before we expanded though we saw the threat and started a union drive.

Pinnalce pilots were ALPA and were displaced and downgraded meanwhile Colgan was awarded huge amounts of Q400 flying. Lucrative Colgan ALPA contract? Ha.
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Are you saying the current Endeavor contract is less lucrative than what Colgan pilots were making before we unionized?

"Had we stayed non-union Colgan would be out of jobs"..... absolutely yes. If your airline runs out of planes it flies, then yeah, usually that means you become jobless. Not in the case of Colgan.
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I appreciate you pointing out this ALPA victory. Guys saved their jobs thanks to what ALPA was able to negotiate.
 
Seggy said:
We are all equal in what we bring to the forum.
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no we're not…we have the appearance of equality here…meaning that anyone can puff up their experience to act like they are more experienced than they are…or act like they are living some wild life…but in here it's hard to tell the bs from what IS real. You have a lot of valuable experience, wonderful stories and amazing accomplishments. Too bad you can't admit when you may have overstepped…because all of the above without credibility is damn near worthless.
 
Bumblebee said:
no we're not…we have the appearance of equality here…meaning that anyone can puff up their experience to act like they are more experienced than they are…or act like they are living some wild life…but in here it's hard to tell the bs from what IS real. You have a lot of valuable experience, wonderful stories and amazing accomplishments. Too bad you can't admit when you may have overstepped…because all of the above without credibility is damn near worthless.
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You keep ignoring what I write Dale, not answering some pretty important questions, and beating around the bush.

I have been pretty clear with the overall point I am trying to get across here...

Thirdly, if you want to do these programs properly (and shouldn't you want to do safety programs properly?) you need a union in place.
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yeah bull. You made a statement that was false. period. won't admit it. Just admit it! Say yes there are programs that are being successfully operated by non union houses…if you can't then you are full of big purple KOOLAId

You keep ignoring that…and that was the only assertion I've made all along.


thing is, a whole lot of people see it, but you and Todd don't and that is telling.
 
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