New Eagle TA

Skyvector said:
This is correct. The company was ready to announce E-170s at another (nameless) company while at the same time announcing the CRJs being moved off property. It appears all this was in the works sometime last week with an official announcement to be made on Monday.

Enough people got wind of this and decided they would rather not see the company they work for pounded into oblivion. They approached the company and requested another chance.

Also word is that one of the voters who abstained today claimed he would vote YES and that the TA was satisfactory. He was a NO vote on the first AIP.
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Another chance? What are we 12?

The MEC acts on behalf of the pilot group. I don't understand this situation at all. Was there an MEC communication?
 
Skyvector said:
I don't think it's ever advantageous to cash out unless it's to move "up".

But I'm sick and tired of hearing these gorillas scream all over the internet about how they don't care if Eagle shuts down, about how they wish the doors would close, "burn it to the ground..." and so on.

If that is how they really feel then just resign. Quit and go be happy somewhere else. There are plenty of us who want to be here and build off of this TA. If all you want to do is burn Eagle down then leave.
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For me personally, it's not that I don't care about Eagle shutting down. I do. Very much. I'm happy here. The fact I am willing to risk so much is not because of my hatred towards the company, nor is it because I don't care about my coworkers. The problem is this TA is not something we build off on. It's a continuation of the downward spiral in our QOL and income, at a time when the company has record profits.

Now, I'm not delusional in believing we have the upper hand. We don't, and we never will. But this trend has to stop somewhere, or at the very least slow down. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of a group that shows it has some dignity and pride in what they are worth. I can't do that by myself, and that is why I am a no vote. Even if it completely fails, I am ok with that, because I believe it would give more leverage to other pilot groups.
 
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CFIscare said:
For me personally, it's not that I don't care about Eagle shutting down. I do. Very much. I'm happy here. The fact I am willing to risk so much is not because of my hatred towards the company, nor is it because I don't care about my coworkers. The problem is this TA is not something we build off on. It's a continuation of the downward spiral in our QOL and income, at a time when the company has record profits.

Now, I'm not delusional in believing we have the upper hand. We don't, and we never will. But this trend has to stop somewhere, or at the very least least slow down. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of a group that shows it has some dignity and pride in what they are worth. I can't do that by myself, and that is why I am a no vote. Even if it completely fails, I am ok with that, because I believe it would give more leverage to other pilot groups.
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That tells me you've educated yourself. Considered the possibilities, understand what's at risk and you're prepared to make a difficult decision.

I wish more people would elucidate that the way you have so "Side A" won't imply you haven't thought it out and "Side B" won't imply you're a kool aid drinker.

Good job, sir.
 
CFIscare said:
For me personally, it's not that I don't care about Eagle shutting down. I do. Very much. I'm happy here. The fact I am willing to risk so much is not because of my hatred towards the company, nor is it because I don't care about my coworkers. The problem is this TA is not something we build off on. It's a continuation of the downward spiral in our QOL and income, at a time when the company has record profits.

Now, I'm not delusional in believing we have the upper hand. We don't, and we never will. But this trend has to stop somewhere, or at the very least least slow down. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of a group that shows it has some dignity and pride in what they are worth. I can't do that by myself, and that is why I am a no vote. Even if it completely fails, I am ok with that, because I believe it would give more leverage to other pilot groups.
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I wish I could like this more than once.
 
Skyvector said:
"Tough' question? Yeah, that's a real "gotcha!"

First, most Regionals are in a training bubble right now. PSA and Mesa in particular but also a few others. Their staffing situation has nothing to do with an inability to hire. They are hiring just fine and filling classes.

Second, when the 50 seaters are parked those pilots will be re-allocated to larger RJ flying. It is what Parker has done with Republic. Don't be so naive to think that wasn't in the plans for a while because it was. Those pilots are now available to fly the larger RJs....and you will see the same thing happening at all the other Regionals.

In short, they do have the pilots and will continue to do so. AA can replace Eagle's flying and they do have options. You have been swayed by the loud talking heads into believing that you can never be replaced by anybody. You have been swayed into believing that this is all just one big bluff on AA's part. It isn't.

If in light of all that your attitude is still to "shut this place down anyway!" then by all means: resign. Take your badge and manuals into the CP's office tomorrow and be on your way. Otherwise you are just playing the mental masturbation game.

This TA is a tremendous win for us and will provide the kind of career progression pilots at other Regionals can only dream of. Have you even seen what the TA has?
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Yes I have thoroughly read through the TA and also studied the history of this sort of thing at not only Eagle, but other regionals. I have spoken to the company, further up than you will ever know. I have spoken to my reps and senior Captains alike. Career progression? You speak of the "Amazing" flow? We have a flow that is supposed to be 50% of AA new hire classes right now. Is that happening? Nope. The company used a clause to meter down to 20 per month. When the final contract language came out for this current AIP/TA, similar "Gotchas" were in that language. The company realizes they won't be able to hire enough to staff all the planes and states they will park airplanes to keep the flow going. So they are going to park shiny new airplanes to keep the flow going? Yeah. Right.

Going back in history, why did the flow fail before? Was it 9/11 or the fact AA bought another airline and didn't need as many pilots? Which happened first?

So this amazing career progression can very quickly be complete crap.

Industry leading? Other regionals have flows now. Do you think they will all just surrender to Eagle and say "Oh wow Eagle is getting the few pilots out there because of their flow! What will we do now?" Yeah. Right. With close to 20k pilots retiring from big tin jobs in the next 10 years, why do we need a flow anyway? You are not one of those negotiating committee guys that failed a ton of training at Eagle and said the flow is your only chance are you? Truth be told, the flow is a way for AA to control the movement of their pilots; most could "flow" to something bigger before they would flow to AA at this point. History will soon show this.

Back to the cornerstone of your argument. Pilot shortage. I agree that PSA and MESA are in a training bubble. I also agree they are getting a good amount of pilots. However, I have some inside info for you: How many of these new hires are not retreads? PSA is getting a ton of Silver Airways guys and MESA and SKW have been robbing the coffers of Great Mistakes. A small percentage of new hires are traditional guys coming from CFI type jobs. The largest flight school in the nation is producing a small fraction of what it once did. About 1/3rd, a little more than that, aren't even going regional. There are many great corporate gigs out there that pay very well these days. That same flight school did an analysis of what it would take to build a 1500 hour pilot, actually for demonstration purposes, it looked at what it would take to build 200 1500 pilots in terms of time and resources. I was in a room during one of these presentations. The results are jaw dropping. Suffice to say, nothing can save the regionals as they exist today except higher pay to attract those unwilling to work in the profession for that reason. I have some analysis on that too and I was also amazed at the percentage of pilots, from one school, that have walked away from the airlines, and in many cases, flying altogether.

Your arguments are missing out on the simple math: 20k pilots slots open above is in 10 years. New pilot "pipelines" longer and thinner than before. This why a place like RAH hired 400 pilots last year but only grew by about 30. You think PSA and MESA will be able to keep their growth going?
 
Skyvector said:
"Tough' question? Yeah, that's a real "gotcha!"

First, most Regionals are in a training bubble right now. PSA and Mesa in particular but also a few others. Their staffing situation has nothing to do with an inability to hire. They are hiring just fine and filling classes.

Second, when the 50 seaters are parked those pilots will be re-allocated to larger RJ flying. It is what Bedford has done with Republic. Don't be so naive to think that wasn't in the plans for a while because it was. Those pilots are now available to fly the larger RJs....and you will see the same thing happening at all the other Regionals.

In short, they do have the pilots and will continue to do so. AA can replace Eagle's flying and they do have options. You have been swayed by the loud talking heads into believing that you can never be replaced by anybody. You have been swayed into believing that this is all just one big bluff on AA's part. It isn't.

If in light of all that your attitude is still to "shut this place down anyway!" then by all means: resign. Take your badge and manuals into the CP's office tomorrow and be on your way. Otherwise you are just playing the mental masturbation game.

This TA is a tremendous win for us and will provide the kind of career progression pilots at other Regionals can only dream of. Have you even seen what the TA has?
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You sound like management.
 
CFIscare said:
For me personally, it's not that I don't care about Eagle shutting down. I do. Very much. I'm happy here. The fact I am willing to risk so much is not because of my hatred towards the company, nor is it because I don't care about my coworkers. The problem is this TA is not something we build off on. It's a continuation of the downward spiral in our QOL and income, at a time when the company has record profits.

Now, I'm not delusional in believing we have the upper hand. We don't, and we never will. But this trend has to stop somewhere, or at the very least slow down. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of a group that shows it has some dignity and pride in what they are worth. I can't do that by myself, and that is why I am a no vote. Even if it completely fails, I am ok with that, because I believe it would give more leverage to other pilot groups.
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I wish I could have put it so eloquently but this is my feeling exactly. Not in a condescending way, but I am proud of you sir!
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
He smells like it too. Management. A Training Center guy. A certain negotiating committee guy.
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Screaming_Emu said:
Both in message and how he joined in Wednesday and dove right in to a very opinionated bunch of posts.

People just don't do that.
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He isn't management, he is just a line pilot that feels the TA is a good thing. I don't agree with him but that doesn't mean we both can't be right. For him it is good, for me it is a dog.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Both in message and how he joined in Wednesday and dove right in to a very opinionated bunch of posts.

People just don't do that.
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They do when their job and company is on the line.

Calling people you disagree with "management" is old and tired. We are all entitled to our points of view. Many of us at Eagle stood back in the shadows the first time around and allowed the conversation to be hijacked.

We won't allow that to happen this time. Many of us are speaking up.
 
Skyvector said:
They do when their job and company is on the line.

Calling people you disagree with "management" is old and tired. We are all entitled to our points of view. Many of us at Eagle stood back in the shadows the first time around and allowed the conversation to be hijacked.

We won't allow that to happen this time. Many of us are speaking up.
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I don't even work at Eagle.

Just saying that when people come out of the woodwork like you did, there is usually a motive.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I don't even work at Eagle.

Just saying that when people come out of the woodwork like you did, there is usually a motive.
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I know man...no hard feelings.

But there are many of us coming out of the woodwork precisely because of what has been happening the last couple of months.

Too many of us are non-confrontational and prefer to avoid arguments in crew lounges and cockpits. Watching your company come very close to being wiped out has sparked something in many of us.
 
@Skyvector, I'm pretty sure you are a troll. There is no scenario, where one could think what the crooked union and management at Eagle are trying to do, is a good thing. Between us at XJT, Eagle, and Republic, WE hold the majority of the cards. BY VOTING YES TO THESE TERRORIST DEMANDS, YOU ARE VOTING YES BECAUSE YOU ARE SCARED. This is not the same as Comair. Not even close. Mainline is making money hand over fist right now. WHY would you give into their demands to make MORE money? It's called corporate greed for goodness sake. If you really are a regional pilot, you should be ashamed for even thinking of voting yes to concessions. Eagle is ONE YEAR into an EIGHT YEAR concessionary contract! This was voted in when the company was supposedly bankrupt. Now they are, and will continue to make BILLIONS. Let them attempt to move the flying if that's how they please. Once again, if you really are a regional airline pilot, and your goal is to go to a mainline carrier, you'll be going. Flows are nothing but a scheme. All it does is draw your attention away from the real issues and gives you NOTHING but false hope. For the folks at Eagle now, many will go to mainline while many others will get jobs much sooner at other mainline carriers. At XJT, our attrition for our ERJ pilots is EXACTLY 50/50 split between the left and right seats. We don't even have a silly flow, yet in a way we do. People are fleeing left and right for the majors out of both seats. Screw the stupid flows. All it is, is a scheme for the sheep who drink the company Kool-Aid. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not even going to continue to right a book on this nonsense for you. Honestly, and people probably won't like this, but you're a troll. That's all you are. You come onto this forum to start a flame war just look some of the other previous tools.

For the rest of you, VOTE NO!!!
 
@Gonzo, I seriously have NO idea what is going on here. I am with you though and I think @LoadMasterC141 is wrong to say any laws were broken. I also highly doubt any Eagle ALPA Policy Manual policies were broken in getting a vote on this TA because if something was done outside of the Policy Manual, it wouldn't be hard to make the vote null and void.

From what is going on here though is you have absolutely atrocious representation and communication from that supposed representation. I know @LoadMasterC141 seems to like his DFW Reps but it is absolutely chicken crap they (and others) 'abstained' from this type of vote. This isn't a type of vote you abstain for. Don't even get me started on the chicken crap communication going on with this. Down right lies from elected ALPA officials from my understanding.

If @LoadMasterC141 and @Gonzo vote no I respect that. I don't respect how his MEC is handling this though. It is very sad and the membership deserves a lot better. The lack of leadership from the Eagle MEC is sickening.
 
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