For anyone thinking of taking out a loan

I agree, going into debt isnt fun nor a good idea. Im one of those guys that took out a big student loan and went to flight school. Making that monthly payment for the next 20 years (already paid 5) sucks, but at the same time I knew what I was getting into. BUT I was able to get all my ratings in a timely manner, got a job flying, got some hours under my belt, flew some cargo, and now have a nice comfy 91/135 jet job. IF I had taken my time and paid for this myself working at Sam's Club, chances are I would still be working on ratings, or a low time CFI at this point.

Yes student loans suck! But I believe that if I hadn't done what I did, I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today.
 
I would rather have little to no debt then go stupidly into a lot of debt, which seems to me what he is aiming at. Some people can make the debt work for them which is great. But I imagine that's a small percent compared to all the other people out there. I got a aviation degree and with flight training graduated with 40k in student loan debt. Had I been smart, I would have done things differently and I'm paying for it now.


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I would rather have little to no debt then go stupidly into a lot of debt, which seems to me what he is aiming at. Some people can make the debt work for them which is great. But I imagine that's a small percent compared to all the other people out there. I got a aviation degree and with flight training graduated with 40k in student loan debt. Had I been smart, I would have done things differently and I'm paying for it now.


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40K is a lot better than some of these kids coming out with 100K from big universities. I was at 50K with an Aviation MGT degree, and I wish I would've majored in something else. My opinion, kids going into it nowadays should get there ratings at a mom and pop shop, and major in something else. Of course the mom and pop shops do have their own issues like being able to get a loan for it or getting an instructor that might string you along just so he can build time.
 
40K is a lot better than some of these kids coming out with 100K from big universities. I was at 50K with an Aviation MGT degree, and I wish I would've majored in something else. My opinion, kids going into it nowadays should get there ratings at a mom and pop shop, and major in something else. Of course the mom and pop shops do have their own issues like being able to get a loan for it or getting an instructor that might string you along just so he can build time.
The 18 year old that wants to be the guy on the right would be wise to stay with parents, pay for flight training while working and study something else. I don't know what prices in the rest of the nation are, but when I was at school California's credit/unit was $19.


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The 18 year old that wants to be the guy on the right would be wise to stay with parents, pay for flight training while working and study something else. I don't know what prices in the rest of the nation are, but when I was at school California's credit/unit was $19.


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Exactly, that way they don't have to live with the parents when they become an RJ FO. Nothing makes Maverick look less cool than "uh.. live with my parents."
 
I've got a question for all you no-debt-at-any-cost guys; what else do you suggest in life?

Pay for everything in cash? Up front? Let's break that down.

Let's say you graduate high school and make the average salary. This website says it's $29,950, but I'll spot you the extra $50 so we can call it an even $30,000.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77

You'd be paying in the 15% bracket, and this website says you'd take home $27,446 per year, or $2287 per month.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/tax-planning/quick-tax-rate-calculator.aspx

Pretty sweet!

So let's say you're the man, AND you're responsible. So you're not going to go to school, get married, or do anything really but save money. Let's say that you can put nearly half of your income every month away, call it $1,000 per month because the numbers are easy.

So let's say you're going to save first, and THEN go to school, because that's what somebody told you to do. You're also not going to do any flight training. Assume you go to an in state school, and let's assume that you'll just need to pay for tuition, because you'll work while you're in school. Let's use my alma mater's tuition rates, and assume you're living in state.

http://www.wmich.edu/registrar/tuition/fall2013-spring2014/main.html

Using some rough numbers, you'll need around $60,000 to pull this off ( (4732 * 6) + (5228 * 6) = $59,760 ). Now, these numbers aren’t PERFECT because they’re for full time enrollment, but frankly I’m lazy and I want to make this a little easier on myself. Let’s assume it’s close enough.

So let's knock out college first, because then you can make more money, and THEN start working on flight training debt.

$60,000 / $1,000 per month is 60 months, or 5 years. So sweet, you're going to work from 18 to 23 until you have all that ched saved up for college.

Awesome.

But because you’re working while you’re in school, it’s going to take you about 7 years to finish things up at 8 credits a semester. Now, I know somebody is going to claim to be superman and say that they did 22 credit hours a semester online while working 5 jobs, but that’s not realistic. I’m not going to lie, I nearly died while going to grad school part time and working full time. I think I had ten days off over a ten month period. So based on my personal experience it’ll take you a lot longer than you think, so work with me here.

Now at 23, you’ll start working on undergraduate while working full time. It’ll take you until you’re 30 to graduate. But you’re debt free!

So at 30, you'll start earning $44,970 according to the website I posted earlier. That's if nothing has gone wrong, you never bought a car, your rent is cheap, and you can actually save that much of your income. But the internet told you to do so, so we'll say that you did, because the internet always gives amazing advice. And because you're so awesome, we'll round to $45,000 a year.

So again at 15% you'll take home $40,196, or about $3,349. Now, again, let's say you're awesome and you double your savings every month, so you're going to save $2,000 per month to pay for flight training.

Let's say you want to get this done reasonably quickly, so you're going to do ATP's program, which if you include housing, is just about $70,000.

$70,000 / $2,000 per month is 35 months, or about 3 years.

So at 33 you start training, and even though I know you can do it quicker, let's say it takes a year.

So you're 34 years old and you're debt free with 250 hours and your CFI/II/MEI. You also have zero dollars in savings. And you don't likely have a reliable car. Nor do you have a house. A spouse and kids? Nope. But you're debt free!!!

But let's continue with this.

You instruct from 34 to 36, you make $15,000 a year each year.

You get hired at a regional at 36. Let's say you average $30,000 a year, every year (again, averages), and then it takes you 5 years to upgrade.

At 41, you upgrade to captain, and you make $60,000 a year, every year (again, averages), and it takes you 5 years to get to a major.

At 46, you've made it. You don't have a car, a house, a spouse, or a kid, but you're debt free and at a mainline carrier.

Let's say you make $100,000 a year for 10 years, and then upgrade, and make $200,000 a year until you retire at 65. Frankly, if this happens, you've hit the lottery, but you're awesome because you're debt free, so we'll give you that much. So over the course of your flying career, you've made $4.8 million at the mainline carrier, and retired at 65. You bought your first house at 46, got married at 46, and didn't have kids because you can't afford them.

So let's back this up, and make some assumptions about taking out the debt.

At 18 you enter undergraduate and pay $60,000, plus do a flight program so you're in the hole for flight training to the tune of $130,000. Lots of money, right? Maybe.

At 22 you graduate, but you did your training quickly and started instructing at 20. At 22 you're hired by a regional. At 27 you upgrade. At 32 you're hired at a mainline carrier. You make $100,000 a year for 10 years, then $200,000 a year for the remainder. You make $7.6 million over the course of your flying career at a mainline carrier, and have to repay $189.271.20 in student loans back (MAYBE, more on this in a second).

If you make the same assumptions for career expectations, you come out MUCH further ahead, by MILLIONS OF DOLLARS if you're able to get to working quicker.

But what about repayment options? Can you really afford that $1500 a month loan payment every month while you're instructing?

Of course not, and every lender knows this, which is why they have alternative repayment plans.

Let's say you enter into the Pay As You Earn repayment program, because you did your flying in college, and you have Direct Loans through the federal government.

When you're making $15,000 per year you will owe zero dollars per year.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn/calculator

So listen guys, you need to understand one thing.

I'm not saying that you need to take out student loans, at all, ever. Nor am I saying they're a good idea. Nor am I recommending you study aviation. Frankly, I'm not recommending anything at all.

What I AM recommending is that no matter what, you need to be discussing this stuff with people that do this stuff for a living (you know, financial aid counselors) and making these kinds of calculations using facts and figures that represent the level of risk that YOU'RE willing to accept, with outcomes that you think are realistic. Simply saying, "DON'T HAVE ANY DEBT EVER" reveals a persons true nature (and the simplemindedness of their thinking), in the same way that "YOU NEED TO TAKE OUT AS MUCH DEBT AS POSSIBLE RIGHT NOW" does (and in that case, it would scream to me that somebody is reckless and short sighted).

Debt is a tool, not a curse. If you can make the tool function in a manner so that it works FOR YOU, then it's useful. But if you don't know what you're doing, then bad things will happen, just like the time erm....MY FRIEND, decided it was a good idea to operate a jack hammer with zero training and little oversight.
 
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Well, my goal to break the cycle is to be able to pay cash for my kids education, and save a large down payment to give them on their houses. Hopefully they can do the same for their kids. Id rather keep the money in the family rather than giving it to a bank.
 
Another great option is to work for a company with tuition reimbursement while working on flying or a degree. One of the only good things about Signature Flight is that they reimburse 50% for part timers and 85% for full time..with a $7,000 per year cap or so. Im still working on my degree and I am just starting with Gulfstream at KBAF.. 100% reimbursement but not sure on a cap.

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Has anybody taken that position?


I have.

I have zero debt. I won't disclose how much I have in the bank let alone trading accounts plus a couple rentals.

I'm now about to take on my first thing of debt in years which is my wife's "dream" house. I need tax breaks now.

Staying out of debt has now created enough wealth that other people are paying my mortgage if I want or need and are contributing to my retirement.

Being on the otherwise of debt is wonderful!!!

I'm 33.
 
Yes.
Dave Ramsey.
I don't think Mr. Ramsey is going to join in our conversation, but there's a chance. I'm not a fan. He gets it right most of the time, but he's a jerk. We can smell our own.

Chipping away at the stone a bit, I think the biggest mistake I see youngsters make is long-term financing of their PPL combined with paying well above retail for rental and instruction in a late-model trainer. The kid I described bought 100 hours of 152 time for $50/hour! I don't know what kind of deal he worked for his instruction, but I bet he did okay.

Let's say he had rented a late-model 172 at retail prices for 100 hours and financed it for 30 years, even at student loan rates - you can do the math.

Borrowing money to finance your training can work if you're careful, it can also kill your aviation career prematurely.
 
Yes.

Dave Ramsey.

After reading much of his material, I would say he's in the "Don't think you can't be debt-free" camp moreso than "Don't touch debt, ever ever ever." He has his own stories of himself and his debt to his car...his wife and his debt on their house, etc. He does dislike debt, yes, but it's because of the daily stories he hears of the burdens it has caused people.

He is one of the few that says, "Don't say you will always have debt like a house payment and a car payment." [and a student loan payment] I find VERY few people in my circles who have this mentality.

To put it a completely different way, I see him as a slightly chunky guy who struggled with 550-calorie Big Macs and 610-calorie Eggnog Lattes. After coming close to a heart attack, he doesn't say "Don't eat" but "Eat better foods in a healthier way."

I have yet to meet a pilot/homeowner/date that says, "I hate being debt-free.". Yet I have met plenty (two in the past month alone) that tell me the struggles and burdens they face with moving/marriage/next job decisions due to the debt they carry.

Can an athlete eat a Big Mac and not feel its effects? Sure. He just noticed that most fast food eaters don't run three miles each day is all. :)
 
I have.

I have zero debt. I won't disclose how much I have in the bank let alone trading accounts plus a couple rentals.

I'm now about to take on my first thing of debt in years which is my wife's "dream" house. I need tax breaks now.

Staying out of debt has now created enough wealth that other people are paying my mortgage if I want or need and are contributing to my retirement.

Being on the otherwise of debt is wonderful!!!

I'm 33.
I wouldn't put you in the "no-debt-at-any-cost guys" category if you are willing to take on debt for informed strategic reasons.
 
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In response to jtrain: Your post was pretty long, so forgive the shortness of mine. I learned to fly from a guy while I was in high school in a '67 150. Super cheap private. Plus my parents gave me some (not all) money towards my private. Besides food and roof over my head, this was the extent of investment I received from them. I also worked at grocery store in high school. Upon graduation my parents considered me independent and they gave me NO money. I then joined the national guard, was deployed five times (so far). So from my military benefits and what I saved during my deployments/other active duty time I paid for college and flying. I also worked at a grocery store and restaurant in college, then flight instructed at the end of college. My college and flight training were also definitely on the cheap end of the spectrum. This did cost me years of my life, but not only did I have no debt, I had money in a Roth IRA. Sorry, I don't have running totals on the dollars, but that is my story.
 
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There is a pervasive myth that the poor are poor because they have no money. In fact, the poor are poor because they are not smart enough to figure out how to get, keep and grow money. Worse, the poor tend to indulge in spending they cannot afford because it makes them feel like they're not poor. Talk about a vicious circle!

The two videos above offer excellent advice for those lacking in money smarts, but how many can follow it?

(Got all my certs for around 20K, self study, never went to a flight school, now have a well-paying 135 gig.)
 
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I have.

I have zero debt. I won't disclose how much I have in the bank let alone trading accounts plus a couple rentals.

I'm now about to take on my first thing of debt in years which is my wife's "dream" house. I need tax breaks now.

Staying out of debt has now created enough wealth that other people are paying my mortgage if I want or need and are contributing to my retirement.

Being on the otherwise of debt is wonderful!!!

I'm 33.
I'm curious what discipline it has taken for you to get to that point. And is that all from trading?


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