Stick and Rudder..
- Thread starter Retired in SAN
- Start date
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Why oh why do posts from ignored people show up on Tap a Talk?!
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Great question. Two months ago, the unlimited division declared that they were going to have a safety stand down and basically boycott the races this year.
Their rationale was that one of the FAA's new rules last year, which made 250 feet AGL the maximum altitude on the course, made flying the course and racing on it more dangerous. What they were apparently asking for this year is assurance from the FAA that anyone breaking the maximum altitude in the name of safety would not be issued a violation. The FAA would not make this assurance, so the unlimited division declared their safety stand down.
Within a day or two of this declaration, the Reno Air Race Association announced that a new class of racing had just been formed, the "Unlimited and Warbird Racing Class". This new racing class had a different president, different leadership, and apparently different rules of competition. Within a few days nearly every racer which had formerly been part of the unlimited division announced that they were now part of this new race class.
This new race class has not drawn a line in the sand regarding the safety issue with the FAA max altitude.
So from an outsider's perspective, it certainly appears that a new organization was created to get racers out from under the boycott, or "safety stand down".
So far, I have not been able to have anyone cogently tell me what this actually means. Even the pilot, Matt Jackson, who originally announced the safety stand down, is part of the new racing class and will be racing this year.
Strange stuff.
EDIT: Link to announcement and discussion on air racing enthusiast website:
http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/showthread.php?11048-Unlimited-Saftey-Stand-Down
Last edited:
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You know more about safety related topics in Alaska than pilots who have actually flown, you know, in Alaska (or at least on to a grass runway ONCE) by virtue of...what, sitting on an advisory panel at an airline? Am I reading that correctly?
Well, I mean. I have done lots and lots of "dive and drive" approaches and I've even landed a few times in VMC. So I guess maybe I'm not seeing the analogy.
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
L-16B
Well-Known Member
I asked u if you would rather not have a competition.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Hee! This is where Seggy lapses in to "no hablo anglais!", expresses his disapproval of emotional abuse, and retires from the field, claiming victory over his shoulder.
WacoFan
Bigly
You can't quit me. Tapatalk won't let you.
WacoFan
Bigly
I don't think you're a man until you've done the MU2 into and out of a grass strip.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Then I'm sadly still in short pants. Someday, though. Someday...
Have a few (hundred) grass landings in cessnas and pipers of all descriptions, plus those cherished few in a Champ that ended with the coveted tailwheel signoff. It's like a type rating for people who don't suck!
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
Waitwaitwait... all your incredible tales of MU greatness, and none involve getting some green on the belly?
I'm crushed, Boris. Just crushed.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You'll get over it. But, sadly, no. When you're hauling checks and car parts, no one has the creativity to send you to a grass strip, it seems. Although I did once land on a ~4000ft strip in absolute Bumscrewistan, NE (to pick up some electrical conduits) which turned out to be covered in about a foot and a half of snow. "Gosh, this seems sort of slippery, better use the revers..." *WHOOM* ABSOLUTE WHITE OUT. So, you know. CRED, STILL, OK?
SteveCostello
My member is well-known.
Faith in Boris restored.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Faith in my ability to stupid things and live to tell about them should be the 1st article of any good religion.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
@Seggy
So while you do bring up some valid concerns about safety culture in Alaska, you are not qualified to give your expert opinion on the "cub driver." Statistically, yes, this video is more "risky" than "ILS-to-ILS" in the flat-land. That said, this is a "Risk Management" topic, if you wanna get to "gravel bar X," how do you do it safely? Here are a few ways to mitigate the risk in this scenario:
Have a skilled experienced pilot with excellent aircraft control.
Wait until the conditions are such that they won't create an overly taxiing environment.
Have the proper equipment for the job.
They have certainly done all of this in these videos from what I can see. Seggy, I'm in the "management" world of Alaska 135 now, and there are some concerns you mention that bear repeating. There are endemic cultural issues in the state - most notably being the quest for money being put above the safety, and the blatant disregard for safety at some companies. Things, however, are actually changing. The culture is moving towards a "safer" generally more risk-averse point-of-view. The companies that are real "cowboy" operators are going out of business, getting shut-down, or just generally changing the way they are because safety is more profitable than the alternative.
Still, I can without a doubt say that little airplane flying up in Alaska is the most consistently difficult flying I've ever done. Everything is against you. There's no radar, no RCO, and most of the time, no IAP. The runway isn't paved, lighted, or in some places, there. The summer has frequently terrible weather, the spring and fall have slush contaminated gravel runways, and the winter has glare ice and -40 below. There's no FBO, no terminal, and any alternate can be more than an hours flying time away.
Where I work, in order to mitigate the risks associated with this sort of work, we have a formal "risk-assessment" process, shared responsibility for dispatch, and quantify and manage risk that we expose ourself to. We do this formally, on paper. That said, most companies leave this to the pilot to do in his head on the fly. I cut my teeth in an environment where I had free-reign to decide when I thought it was safe to fly, I made some mistakes, I made some bad decisions, but I learned. This sort of environment, with lots of potential threats, lends itself to a high accident rate. This is changing as the infrastructure improves, but there are still a lot more real, tangible, and dangerous threats that aren't there in the lower 48.
Keep learning, keep humble, and learn when it's appropriate to "get creative," and when it's better to throw in the towel. Combine that with good SRM, and a good company culture (and if it isn't there, create it), and you'll stay safe.
That said, this isn't dangerous in the cowboy sense of the word. These guys know what they're doing, are proficient, and are well trained. That doesn't mean things won't still get bent occasionally, but getting a prop during a ground loop at 5kts is different than CFIT (which is still the primary killer in the state up here and has already gotten a couple of folks this year). I recommend you come up north on vacation, give me a shout when you do, I'll try to get you on a flight out someplace, you'll see some of the challenges we're up against, and how operating in the same way as they do at the airlines sometimes is the "less safe" option.
So while you do bring up some valid concerns about safety culture in Alaska, you are not qualified to give your expert opinion on the "cub driver." Statistically, yes, this video is more "risky" than "ILS-to-ILS" in the flat-land. That said, this is a "Risk Management" topic, if you wanna get to "gravel bar X," how do you do it safely? Here are a few ways to mitigate the risk in this scenario:
Have a skilled experienced pilot with excellent aircraft control.
Wait until the conditions are such that they won't create an overly taxiing environment.
Have the proper equipment for the job.
They have certainly done all of this in these videos from what I can see. Seggy, I'm in the "management" world of Alaska 135 now, and there are some concerns you mention that bear repeating. There are endemic cultural issues in the state - most notably being the quest for money being put above the safety, and the blatant disregard for safety at some companies. Things, however, are actually changing. The culture is moving towards a "safer" generally more risk-averse point-of-view. The companies that are real "cowboy" operators are going out of business, getting shut-down, or just generally changing the way they are because safety is more profitable than the alternative.
Still, I can without a doubt say that little airplane flying up in Alaska is the most consistently difficult flying I've ever done. Everything is against you. There's no radar, no RCO, and most of the time, no IAP. The runway isn't paved, lighted, or in some places, there. The summer has frequently terrible weather, the spring and fall have slush contaminated gravel runways, and the winter has glare ice and -40 below. There's no FBO, no terminal, and any alternate can be more than an hours flying time away.
Where I work, in order to mitigate the risks associated with this sort of work, we have a formal "risk-assessment" process, shared responsibility for dispatch, and quantify and manage risk that we expose ourself to. We do this formally, on paper. That said, most companies leave this to the pilot to do in his head on the fly. I cut my teeth in an environment where I had free-reign to decide when I thought it was safe to fly, I made some mistakes, I made some bad decisions, but I learned. This sort of environment, with lots of potential threats, lends itself to a high accident rate. This is changing as the infrastructure improves, but there are still a lot more real, tangible, and dangerous threats that aren't there in the lower 48.
Keep learning, keep humble, and learn when it's appropriate to "get creative," and when it's better to throw in the towel. Combine that with good SRM, and a good company culture (and if it isn't there, create it), and you'll stay safe.
That said, this isn't dangerous in the cowboy sense of the word. These guys know what they're doing, are proficient, and are well trained. That doesn't mean things won't still get bent occasionally, but getting a prop during a ground loop at 5kts is different than CFIT (which is still the primary killer in the state up here and has already gotten a couple of folks this year). I recommend you come up north on vacation, give me a shout when you do, I'll try to get you on a flight out someplace, you'll see some of the challenges we're up against, and how operating in the same way as they do at the airlines sometimes is the "less safe" option.
n57flyguy
Well-Known Member
Hahaha I tell no lie when I say I have had dance lessons.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
sweeps
Undercarriage Actuator
@Boris Badenov your avatar wouldn't happen to be a certain General Jack Ripper would it? Love that movie