What you would want first responders to know?

MQAAord said:
Don't fire response teams at airports go through full ARFF training? Aren't these kinds of things covered in ARFF training?
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I'm sure they do at places with commercial (121) service. Not at those places without it, tho. And that includes a lot of airports.

Memory isn't what it used to be but I think I've been to five plane crashes since 1984 at Sky Acres - all single engine GA - and I didn't make them all here. The traffic mix has changed a bit over the decades with improvements to the airfield. The training hasn't. Our focus is on what we "usually" get and deal with most often: extrication at car accidents, vehicle fires, single family residential structure fires and so forth.

Those of you flying 121 are covered much better, I think. The 135/91 crews and pax, tho (and anyone flying GA to more rural areas) find much less standardization and effective training.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Bring tacos.
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And some tequila (for after my post-accident drug test).

Four (or five, depending on how you count) things on the Brasilia to shut the thing down:
- both engine fire handles
- APU shutoff switch
- backup battery
- power select

Oh. And that oxygen cylinder is right behind my seat...
 
Because of the wide variety of aircraft a responder might encounter and the lack of regular exposure a small suburban or rural fire services team would get, I think most any type specific info would be wasted.

Generic, easy to remember training like how to open doors on small GA, turbo props, and some jets would be great, some quick recommendations for locating and turning off fuel and battery power, and make them aware of common fuel and oxygen tank locations is probably good so they dont put a saw into one.

All I want them to do is get me out of a burning airplane, I could give a crap about preservation of the aircraft up to that point.

I'm pretty sure it's normal for fire services to document any changes to switch/valve positions that they might make to secure the crash, but a reminder to do so and not touch anything once its secured.
 
Bob Ridpath said:
[quote="Dynasty22, post: 2078764, member: 14408"]Part 139.319.

Requirement for passenger ops or commercial, right?

I enjoying watching the PC-12 and a King Air at Sky Acres, along with a smattering of light twins but most of the traffic here is (obviously) single engine GA. No such requirement as Part 139 for us, although the pax load for the Pilatus or King Air could be substantial in a relative sense. We treat a 172 as a motor vehicle might be in many ways (with obvious differences of the magneto system and greater fuel quantity). The PC-12 or King Air, I'm thinking, contains significant differences and other hazards to mitigate (fuel type, onboard oxygen, number of crew and pax, heavier construction/ribs to cut for extrication)
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For passenger ops, yes, but not all airports on the list below have scheduled operations.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...HxBOYYY2Lfiw3Dw&bvm=bv.44770516,d.eWU&cad=rja
 
USMCmech said:
Dedicated ARFF crews obviously receive this type of training.

The VFD boys in the county where your airplane actually comes to rest likely have not.
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Bob Ridpath said:
I'm sure they do at places with commercial (121) service. Not at those places without it, tho. And that includes a lot of airports.

Memory isn't what it used to be but I think I've been to five plane crashes since 1984 at Sky Acres - all single engine GA - and I didn't make them all here. The traffic mix has changed a bit over the decades with improvements to the airfield. The training hasn't. Our focus is on what we "usually" get and deal with most often: extrication at car accidents, vehicle fires, single family residential structure fires and so forth.

Those of you flying 121 are covered much better, I think. The 135/91 crews and pax, tho (and anyone flying GA to more rural areas) find much less standardization and effective training.
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That makes sense, thank you :)
 
Don't expect the airplane to look like a whole structure... In some of my aviation classes, when we watch accident investigation films where they interview people, there is always THAT guy that says, "When I got there... I was expecting to see a plane just like training, but there just total carnage... Like you couldn't even tell it was an airplane, and we barely knew where to start." Be prepared for the worst and hope of the best.
 
BobDDuck said:
I know MikeD is out slaying dragons or something, but if he can stick his head in the thread for a minute he can probably provide a pretty good list. He's been running aviation fire services for a long, long time.
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Been real busy with not alot of free time since the beginning of the year and definitely no time to hang out on the computer, but wanted to drop in on this one from someone who requested it like you are here. Yeah, I started out CFR (ARFF) a long time ago, and now run my own contract fire service as a side busness where CFR is one of our specialities, among other areas of fire/rescue/EMS.

z987k said:
Maybe the firewall fuel shutoff, door and emergency exit. Nothing else should really matter to them.
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There's actually alot that matters to me, but it's general stuff. I don't want to know or care how to build your airplane, in terms of systems, etc. Obvious stuff like fuel shutoff, electrical shutoff, engine shutoff, etc, are important. But delving into systems themselves, for example the oxygen system, I want to know things like what type is it? Pressurized air? Liquid Oxygen (LOX)? Onboard O2 Generating System (OBOGS)? That tells me the hazard I may be dealing with in a particular instance when it comes to that kind of system. And believe me, these kinds of details are thought about, or should be. Where is the system tank or resevoir located?

And further to that, what is behind various external panels or even fuselage sections of your aircraft? Why do I care? Because if I have to cut with metal or carbide saw such as a K-12, I need to know where to in order to not hit a system, hit a high pressure line or line with flammable liquids within, or potentially hit heavy aircraft structure that could ignite. This was tragically demonstrated on 8 February 1976 in the crash of a Mercer Airlines DC-6 that crashed on a golf course while enroute from KBUR to KVNY after suffering an engine failure and physical loss of the engine and structural damage, and an unsuccessful emergency landing attempt at KBUR. The aircraft crashed onto a golf course, and there was no post-crash fire, though there was an abundance of leaking 100/130 (green) AVGAS as well as fumes from same around the cockpit area where the deceased flightcrew were entrapped. The LA County FD that was on scene, primarily consisting of structural firefighters, were making cuts on the cockpit area with a saw in order to reach the flightcrew. The area had been already foamed down, however the foam blanket surface was continually being disturbed by the firefighters walking through it, and not resurfaced or touched-up, thus allowing fumes to escape containment. While cutting, the saw team hit a portion of solid aircraft structure which generated heavy sparks that instantly ignited the fuel vapors present where the fire crew was standing. Even though the resultant fire was instantly extinguised, 10 firefighters were injured from the flash fire.

Now, as to the above, you'll notice that on many transport-category aircraft that this is already taken care of by the manufacturer in the way of external fuselage markings that are either full outlines or corner outlines that are labled "CUT HERE" or "CUTTING POINT" or something similar that visually points to the areas firefighters can safely cut into the fuselage in order to gain access. However, many lighter general aviation aircraft, including corporate jets, don't have these markings on the fuselage, which is why I like to find out from the crews or maintenance folks of these aircraft what is where, or to be able to physically look behind panels if the flightcrew doesn't happen to know.

Another item, for example, is emergency exits as well as normal exits. There are about as many different types of normal and emergency exits, as there are different types of airplanes out there. For transport category, just look at the differences as the normal exits of a 737 versus a DC-10. Or even same type aircraft, such as the overwing exits of a 737-200 versus a 737-900. Other unusual exits, such as a tailcone on the DC-9 series, or airstair on a 727 series are good to know that they exist. Thats why seeing it firsthand and demonstrated is always a good thing to experience. And it's NOT always intuitive or something that all firefighters know, even if CFR/ARFF trained.......which training-wise, Ill address that in Amber's question.

MQAAord said:
Don't fire response teams at airports go through full ARFF training? Aren't these kinds of things covered in ARFF training?
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The answer is, it depends. Depends on a good number of factors. CFR/ARFF training in and of itself is fairly general. Where you get into specifics will depend on who you are as a fire crew. Generally speaking, dedicated CFR/ARFF crews at a particular airport focus primarily on and train to, the aircraft that operate predominately from their airport. They'll seek whatever aircraft familiarization they can get from uncommon aircraft that happen to pass through, but their primary experience and training will be with what they have there. Example, an ARFF crew from a USAF fighter base may know fighter jets and dangers such as ejection seat systems and munitions very well, but may not be as familiar or current with, say, the specifics of an A320 or 767 or even a Gulfstream. Conversely, an ARFF crew at a large GA or passenger airport may not be fully familiar with the hydrozine dangers of an F-16 for example, as well as munitions or other items. Neither may or may not know helicopters well, for example. But all of these ARFF firefighters will know the basics of handling an aircraft emergency with regards to the varying types of situations that can be encountered, but not all will know the specifics of every aircraft. Thats why we have reference guides to different aircraft with regards to some of this important info.

Bob Ridpath said:
If you happened to go down at 44N (Sky Acres, Millbrook, NY), it's likely four minutes for 911 to get out the dispatch, 4 minutes for me to get to an engine (if I'm home), and a 6 minute drive to the scene - and I'm likely alone. You're on fire for nearly fifteen minutes before the first rig can put water on you, unless you are really, REALLY fortunate. Go down at an airport with staffed fire service? Still looking at five or six minutes probably from initial impact to response time to water/foam on the fire. That's a long, long time at 1,800+ degrees.

If you go down in a field somewhere and have to rely on a cell call or hope that a nearby neighbor sees the "glow," just kiss your ass goodbye.
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Very true. Remember this? :

http://forums.jetcareers.com/thread...le-accident-1-year-later.147397/#post-1931783

Dynasty22 said:
Part 139.319. This is my first choice knowing this.
(2) The response required by paragraph (h)(1)(ii) of this section must achieve the following performance criteria:
(i) Within 3 minutes from the time of the alarm, at least one required aircraft rescue and firefighting vehicle must reach the midpoint of the farthest runway serving air carrier aircraft from its assigned post or reach any other specified point of comparable distance on the movement area that is available to air carriers, and begin application of extinguishing agent.
(ii) Within 4 minutes from the time of alarm, all other required vehicles must reach the point specified in paragraph (h)(2)(i) of this section from their assigned posts and begin application of an extinguishing agent.
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Keep in mind too that one of the fastest ARFF responses to date (if not the fastest), from a complete standstill to responding and commencing an initial attack on the fire, was the response to the RTO due to an engine failure, and subsequent fire, by a British Airtours 737-200 at Manchester, England in 1985, resulting in 55 fatalities. The jet aborted its takeoff intact, but the intense fire from the ruptured fuel tank spread so rapidly, that the response within 1 minute of the arrival of the first CFR Rapid Intervention (RIV) that began fire attack, still couldn't prevent the number of fatalities, for a number of compounding reasons.

USMCmech said:
Dedicated ARFF crews obviously receive this type of training.

The VFD boys in the county where your airplane actually comes to rest likely have not.
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Correct. And non-CFR/ARFF crews won't have it due to it being cost prohibitive for training and currency purposes.

Bob Ridpath said:
Our focus is on what we "usually" get and deal with most often: extrication at car accidents, vehicle fires, single family residential structure fires and so forth..
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Very true. Remember this? And this was a large city structure department too:

Page 2, post 28:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/tus-ems-helo-crash.112346/

rframe said:
I'm pretty sure it's normal for fire services to document any changes to switch/valve positions that they might make to secure the crash, but a reminder to do so and not touch anything once its secured.
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Done if possible and to best extent possible; but yes, not the highest priority at all.
 
Kinda interesting, we have a GA airport in our primary response area......and there really are no SOPs or training that our people go through for anything that could possibly happen there. Few of the guys on the dept are pilots, but other than that the average responder would be kinda "guessing as you go".....for awhile they talked about some of us that are pilots, working with that FBO.....putting somethin together for the other guys, but never happened. The other interesting part.....Mike you probably would know deeper on this....the city next to ours has an airport with 121 service, and they have an full time ARFF station on the field. Some of our people talked possibly bout a mutual aid agreement (they respond to our city if needed to help) BUT....supposedly they are not allowed to leave their airport for any reason....basically totally commited to their area.....is that a federal law Mike?


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IndianaPilot said:
Kinda interesting, we have a GA airport in our primary response area......and there really are no SOPs or training that our people go through for anything that could possibly happen there. Few of the guys on the dept are pilots, but other than that the average responder would be kinda "guessing as you go".....for awhile they talked about some of us that are pilots, working with that FBO.....putting somethin together for the other guys, but never happened. The other interesting part.....Mike you probably would know deeper on this....the city next to ours has an airport with 121 service, and they have an full time ARFF station on the field. Some of our people talked possibly bout a mutual aid agreement (they respond to our city if needed to help) BUT....supposedly they are not allowed to leave their airport for any reason....basically totally commited to their area.....is that a federal law Mike?
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It's not federal law regarding mutual aid per se, but where the airport or department will run into a problem with doing this, and which they always want to avoid, has to do with the airport's ARFF Index rating under 14 CFR 139. The index determines what minimum vehicles and water gallonage is required to be able to legally operate certain size/types of aircraft from the airport under 14 CFR 121. This index is A through E, E being the highest. If an airport has 121 service, and is for instance an Index C; and they allow an ARFF truck or two to leave the airport on a mutual aid, then for the time those trucks are effectively out of service, that airport isn't an Index C anymore; it's whatever Index it now complies with with the remaining vehicles, which may not meet the legal requirement for the type/size of 121 aircraft flying into that airport. That's where the problem arises.
 
Makes sense....also, our borders touch but it's still a good 20 minutes or so away.....so they would be quite aways out of their district anyways


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MikeD thanks for the response. Something you brought up was where to cut and I never thought about that. When the fire teams came out we talked about where the O2s were and what kind, as well as the type and location of the battery. AC in the nose, etc. It was a good experience to work with everyone.
 
I have been involved in an off airport crash, the first responders were not from an airport so they had little to no clue on what to do with an airplane, I think an important aspect, especially in GA is having some equipment on board and know how to use it, in some cases the PIC will be the first responder, a good medical kit (not a first aid) and some training should be in the bucket list of most pilots flying GA.
 
scooter2525 said:
MikeD thanks for the response. Something you brought up was where to cut and I never thought about that. When the fire teams came out we talked about where the O2s were and what kind, as well as the type and location of the battery. AC in the nose, etc. It was a good experience to work with everyone.
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Like I mentioned, most of the larger aircraft have the cut areas marked on the exterior fuselage, which is nice.

11-2.jpg



I want to know where to cut and where not to cut, in order to avoid this or something else bad from happening.......

11.jpg
 
I worked in the airport unit of a PD. We responded to all incidents/accidents and were first responders. The best advice? This may sound cynical...but don't try to be a hero. Aviation crashes are very dynamic compared to car accidents. Planes are made of composites now and when they burn, the smoke released will cause a guaranteed cancer very soon if inhaled. Also, planes are coming with ballistic recovery chutes. If they haven't detonated, they can at any moment on the ground and either amputate limbs or kill you. Also, you can see wings start bending or bubbling from the fuel inside getting heated up if theres a fire source. There was an accident at the airport where a Park Ranger responded and ran with a fire extinguisher to the side of the airplane where the wing was starting to deform. It required an Airport Officer jeopardizing his life to save this guy from his own possible demise. I suggest respond with extreme caution and take legit training and safety classes. Misrepresentation of knowledge in this field can/will kill you.
 
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