National Airlines B747-400 Freighter (BCF) Down in Bagram, Afghanistan

Roll authority during a stall is very airplane specific and based on many aerodynamic factors. Most GA airplanes are designed to stall first at the root, which is how a rectangular planform behaves. This preserves some aileron control during a stall. Swept wings, on the other hand, are optimized for high-speed flight but have very unfavorable stall characteristics, tending to stall first at the tips.

Image downloaded from http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/Library/books/FLT/Chapter17/WingPlanform.htmView attachment 23661

You are correct. In fact, a large transport WILL have roll authority through the stall, as there is still some lift, and even if the ailerons won't do it, the spoilers will. Also, the swept back plan form changes that ballgame in this respect.
 
Well, that's definitely interesting. What seemed to be an almost sure case of cargo load shift may indeed be something else.

No, it does not mean anything one way or the other. Perhaps the pitch was higher on this takeoff that put more strain on locks/restraints. Load shift remains on the list of possibilities either way. Not saying it is or is not, just that if it is true that nothing was loaded, it changes the conditional probability only slightly.
 
I wonder what a load shift feels like as it is happening? Can you feel the cargo move even prior to its ill effects on CG? That's what my question about putting it down and taking your chances were about. If you can feel/hear/sense that you've had a load-shift I would imagine your mind would say "Wow...that could potentially be a quarter of a million pounds (guessing as far as payload)...we'll take our chances with chopping the throttles and staying on/or close to the ground". Again, just guessing at the thought process - and taking into account that it would be damn near impossible in my view that you could sense the shift, make the decision that quickly and then execute it. Probably beating a dead horse - I look at that video and imagine all that weight and the effects and it's about as likely to be able to do something as it would be if a wing fell off.

You would definitely hear it. Heck, if you are carrying cattle on a 747 you can hear and feel when they kick the side of their containers hard!
 
Actually, Train, they don't have to come out and say anything at all specific. The fact that they did is an indication that they're relatively confident of the facts that they've released. Otherwise, they would have remained silent on them.

Have you ever had any professional training on dealing with the media after an accident like this? By your statement, I'm going to guess no due to what you said being completely backwards from what is taught. The company SHOULD respond with something, factual based and nothing more. By not saying anything (no comment), you're saying something and the public will see you as eluding to the facts and then you have a media firestorm on your hands. If your company rep comes out and willingly meets with the press and shows that they're cooperating, people eventually lose interest and the media then disappears.
 
Have you ever had any professional training on dealing with the media after an accident like this?

Yes.

The company SHOULD respond with something, factual based and nothing more.

Which is exactly what I said. Yes, they had to say something factual. No, they did not have to provide specific information such as what they provided in regards to inspections being done prior to both flights, no cargo being added, etc. By doing so, it's a pretty clear indication that they are relatively confident in the information that they provided. Otherwise, the facts that they would have chosen to provide would have been much more general in nature.
 
Yes.



Which is exactly what I said. Yes, they had to say something factual. No, they did not have to provide specific information such as what they provided in regards to inspections being done prior to both flights, no cargo being added, etc. By doing so, it's a pretty clear indication that they are relatively confident in the information that they provided. Otherwise, the facts that they would have chosen to provide would have been much more general in nature.

Roger. I went back and re-read again what you posted and see that I misinterpreted the way you explained it. You're exactly right in what you wrote, apologies.
 
You can hear and feel empty ULDs properly secured, but the sides banging about during takeoff.
 
Here are two more posts from over at baseops.net; can't speak for the authenticity/accuracy of the comment or the photos they saw.

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forum...ash-at-bagram/page__view__findpost__p__346925
I've seen supposed pictures of the cargo. If the pictures are of the actual load it would be not surprise to me the cargo shifted.

The MRAPs in the pictures I saw were secured using commercial cargo straps (mind you these vehicles weigh about 28K each). Just by looking at them I wouldn't rate them any higher than 1000 pound straps each... not the 5K straps we use. They looked pretty damn thin in the pictures.
http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forum...ash-at-bagram/page__view__findpost__p__346954
Saw the same pics with the blue "cheap straps". Didn't initially put 2+2 together.
 
I have no idea what kind of straps NAC uses, but the pics you posted on baseops of an Atlas jet seem to show straps similar to the 5000# variety the AF uses. MRAPs are pretty damn big & can make any strap look like a "cheap" one.
 
I'm curious to see what these alleged photos of the actual NAC load show.

As I said in the other thread, my experience with cargo on aircraft in excess of 2,000 lbs of explosives (or, perhaps 5,000# of an external fuel tank!) is nil. It is dogs watching television for me...but since my pointy-nosed days are over and who knows what is in my future, I'm learnin'....
 
The sum total of my loadmaster experience is limited to pushing pallets and running the locks. Figuring out the proper restraint is, as you say, "dogs watching television" for me, too. Either it passes the TLAR check, or it doesn't. I don't know enough to gnat's ass it in my head, so I have to trust that they're following the -9.
 
It's worth noting that the plane flew from Bastian to Bagram already with that load of cargo on board.

Pure speculation, but it's possible that there was a miscommunication and some straps were undone in Bagram by accident.
 
That seems like a stretch, but granted, I'm not experienced in cargo ops. I'm not sure why people are so dismissive of a flight control malfunction. Seems like a legitimate possibility to me.
 
That seems like a stretch, but granted, I'm not experienced in cargo ops. I'm not sure why people are so dismissive of a flight control malfunction. Seems like a legitimate possibility to me.

It's possible, but I don't think most likely. There have been a couple control malfunctions on the whale over the years. I believe the most recent case is the NWA upper rudder hardover over Alaska about 10 years ago.
 
That seems like a stretch, but granted, I'm not experienced in cargo ops. I'm not sure why people are so dismissive of a flight control malfunction. Seems like a legitimate possibility to me.

I think the people on the board who could possibly give details on how this type of freight is secured are staying quiet for a reason. The majority of this thread is pure speculation and bad information anyway; I wouldn't take dismissal of a flight control failure to mean much in this thread.
 
I thought this was a good comparison to how MRAPs are secured on a C-17

081228-F-3798Y-003.JPG
 
Let me pre-empt this with while I'm a cargo driver, the heaviest thing I flew was a 1900D, and I only fly cargo in a caravan, to this, my experience is and my expertise will remain limited to.

I learned from a friend of mine that was getting typed in a KA350 that even in straight wings, with an uncontrollable pitch up (trim runaway, elev/flight control mal, etc) that rolling over past 45 degrees did exactly what was mentioned, about preventing a high nose attitude that would have induced a stall. He said it was important to recognize before the airspeed got too low, so ailerons remained effective and allowed altitude control while diagnosing the problem.

In my experience, I bet if I had a bunch of boxes in my caravan that slid back on me during take off roll that my nose would pitch up before Vr because of the added tail down force the aft cg creates, not unlike having too many skydivers hanging out the back door or rush to the back of said caravan too quickly. In this situation as the aircraft left the ground, I think I would commit to an airborne problem rather than chopping power and trying to get it back on the ground. As I remember in training, that's why I would give a pre-takeoff brief that included "....after Vr and rotation, any emergency will become an airborne emergency and dealt with airborne, I fly, you fix, etc. . . . . ." Those take off briefs weren't for my mental health, they helped me become prepared for what to do.... in an emergency.

I can appreciate the light this very sad event brings to how I do my job to protect myself so I can go home and see my wife every night. Whatever the case, this will be a reminder for me to remember, "don't get lazy, check my straps, and did the loaders secure them correctly, is my net in good shape and used properly? Are the D rings secure in the floor? Have I adhered to company and manufacturer policies? Have I done everything to prevent an accident today so that I can take my wife out to dinner tonight?"

.02
 
Do heavy freight operators (civilian) travel with an inflight loadmaster or is just the pilots?
 
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