Capt. Chaos
Well-Known Member
According to the ACE guys I talked to the machine had GPWS and the TAWS on the Garmin 430, but no CVR.
Missing 1900
- Thread starter ShortField
- Start date
According to the ACE guys I talked to the machine had GPWS and the TAWS on the Garmin 430, but no CVR.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
If that's the case, and if it was functioning correctly, then I doubt it was a CFIT accident.
The TAWS on the Garmin 430 is ultra sensitive, and I've found gives more nuisance warnings than anything else because the logic seems to be so paranoid of you running into anything, to include mole hills.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
Uhg, this is terrible... 
Couldn't that be a contributing factor? It's been awhile since I got a terrain warning on a 430 but I thought there was a way to mute the warning. If I was going in and out of the mountains everyday and got that same warning I might push to cancel the warning without thinking. Crap happens.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
An excellent point, but if they had GPWS and TAWS, you'd think the GPWS warning would eventually wake you up.
We've got EGPWS at work, and in mountainous terrain we bring up a page that paints the terrain around us. It's a really, really, really handy feature at night or in IMC.
Capt. Chaos
Well-Known Member
Technological fail safes aside, my guess is that the clearance may have been issued while they were on a course that fell into the NoPT arc, which at 2000ft would have led to a safe arrival. The request to enter the hold after the approach clearance was given however would have required an arrival at ZEDAG at 4300ft, and should have required the issuance of a amended clearance. But with out the ATC tapes just my own speculation.
If this accident is a result of CFIT it will be a victim of the most common accidents in aviation. Most modern aircraft are all about monitoring the performance of the aircraft and crew continuously. No amount of equipment will ever help a crew if the crew fails to manage all the variables/situations involve with the current flight at hand. No checkride in the world can predict how a pilot is going to perform on every flight! When someone comes up with such a formula I will use it to win at the poker table in Vegas.
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
Maybe I am missing something here.... But wouldnt you have to be at or above 4300 until zedag ( which is what they were going to) until on the approach? Regardless of the NoPT? Which it doesnt sound like they were in that area anyways.
z987k
Well-Known Member
GPWS aside, yes the 430's terrain feature is incredibly annoying. I don't even think of canceling it anymore, but we do have other terrain awareness things, much like jtrain was talking about I think.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Not to speculate or anything, but crap happens when people are tired.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
This is exactly what I thought as I read? My God...
deadringer86
Well-Known Member
Bourbon has been raised. Terrible news.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Amen. Both on the ATC side and the flight crew side.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
Either way... RIP
ppragman
No pasa nada.
It's not the same up here as it is down here - complacency, combined with your next statement about sensitivity leads a lot of guys to put it in terrain inhibit, or simply ignore the warnings from it. Further, I'd speculate that these guys were probably tired. ACE is a good place in many respects, but they run their crews a bit hard.
When you've done something "a million times" and Dilli is a common destination, and you think you're on the published approach, and that annoying thing clicks on, unless you're trained against it, you'll probably click it off.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
My synopsis:
Improper Controller Instruction led them to descend to 2,000'.
Poor weather made them decide to hold to figure out what the runway was doing.
While they were setting up for all that and thinking about the wind and the runway, they failed to notice, or ignored a terrain alert.
They impacted terrain and were killed.
Sucky deal all around, but not-entirely surprising given the location and the type of flying. I used to work for ACE when I was about the FOs age and understand how the operation was - it was a freight company, flying it's airplanes and it's crews damn hard. It was not uncommon when I was there for guys to "time out" for the year in late November or early December with 1400hrs for the year. Similarly, the schedule tended to be a lot of hard days on with few hard days off, and the flying was particularly aggressive at some destinations. Dillingham was certainly not considered "a hard trip, with lot's to worry about." Dillingham was an "easy" destination while I was there. Honestly, I suspect that this was complacency or fatigue coupled with an instruction that shouldn't have been at the exact wrong time. When you fly those airplanes into places like Donlin Creek Mine, or Chenega Bay, or Tatitlek, and you're accustomed to seeing the terrain alert flash at you, it's easy to punch it off without even thinking. We're specifically trained not to here, other places may not have that in their training program.
Improper Controller Instruction led them to descend to 2,000'.
Poor weather made them decide to hold to figure out what the runway was doing.
While they were setting up for all that and thinking about the wind and the runway, they failed to notice, or ignored a terrain alert.
They impacted terrain and were killed.
Sucky deal all around, but not-entirely surprising given the location and the type of flying. I used to work for ACE when I was about the FOs age and understand how the operation was - it was a freight company, flying it's airplanes and it's crews damn hard. It was not uncommon when I was there for guys to "time out" for the year in late November or early December with 1400hrs for the year. Similarly, the schedule tended to be a lot of hard days on with few hard days off, and the flying was particularly aggressive at some destinations. Dillingham was certainly not considered "a hard trip, with lot's to worry about." Dillingham was an "easy" destination while I was there. Honestly, I suspect that this was complacency or fatigue coupled with an instruction that shouldn't have been at the exact wrong time. When you fly those airplanes into places like Donlin Creek Mine, or Chenega Bay, or Tatitlek, and you're accustomed to seeing the terrain alert flash at you, it's easy to punch it off without even thinking. We're specifically trained not to here, other places may not have that in their training program.
I have not kept up with the details of this accident but I will pass something on from pilots I worked under to the pilots in which work under my command. A controller is there to manage not control. Most controllers will go home every night, the question is will you? I have never forgotten those lessons, and no pilot should allow a controller to control his or her aircraft! Situation awareness please!!