Unfeathered propeller performance

You just needed to do more squats and strengthen those legs.
When I transitioned to jets it was me and another ATR pilot. First V1 cut we started doing the "flail" routine. Instructor hit the freeze button and asked "What in the %#*^ are you turbo trash pilots doing???? This airplane does not have 15' wing mounted props. It has tail mounted turbofans."

LOL. Did you tell him "sorry, I'm used to to a twin with *ahem* cajones..."

On a serious note, a dead engine with an unfeathered propeller is one of those scenarios that manufacturers don't "plan" for. As mentioned above, it will cause HUGE performance penalties, and I would treat it like an engine failure in a single. That said, this is a very unlikely scenario given that all prop twins are designed such that a feathered propeller is the default failure mode. And, the bigger turboprop twins have multiple redundant systems to ensure the propeller gets feathered. Now, I don't know about these Garretts with their "Autocoursen" wierdness, but big Pratts are almost failure-proof. First, in the takeoff and initial climb segments, the autofeather system will, well, Auto-feather. If that fails, the condition (prop) lever will feather the prop normally, and finally the Auxilliary feather system acts a a final backup driving the prop towards feather.
 
Interesting. We only did it on the first leg of the day and called it good for the 20 legs after that one.

That's what we do as well. I can't imagine testing it every leg. Must be a BroKillYa thing.


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That's what we do as well. I can't imagine testing it every leg. Must be a BroKillYa thing.
Very much so.

The prop mechanism on the 14RF9-PW118-EMB120 combination is fail deadly—a propeller control malfunction inflight may result in the propeller going to full fine pitch and a catastrophic overspeed (read: loss of the aircraft) will result. Feathering and unfeathering puts the largest loads on the ballscrew (the second largest is going from a flight idle blade angle to a ground idle blade angle, so guys who taxi by clicking over the gate repeatedly really aren't doing the mechanism any favors)—the purpose of the manual feather check (called for by the AFM, as well as by our SOP and checklist) is to make sure that the prop control mechanism is still engaged. We do it twice on the first flight of the day, but the second time is (IMO) more to flush the oil in the prop servomechanism.

Regarding autofeather, I'm pretty sure we test it every leg to avoid rejecting a takeoff due to "DING DING DING, TAKEOFF AUTOFEATHER" (power levers advanced, delay timer expired and no ARMED light)—which does happen from time to time. We'd rather catch it on taxi out than run the risk of a high speed RTO.
 
The best thing about the ATR was that it was all 'computer' controlled and we didn't even have to have the engines running to check it.
 
Very much so.

The prop mechanism on the 14RF9-PW118-EMB120 combination is fail deadly—a propeller control malfunction inflight may result in the propeller going to full fine pitch and a catastrophic overspeed (read: loss of the aircraft) will result. Feathering and unfeathering puts the largest loads on the ballscrew (the second largest is going from a flight idle blade angle to a ground idle blade angle, so guys who taxi by clicking over the gate repeatedly really aren't doing the mechanism any favors)—the purpose of the manual feather check (called for by the AFM, as well as by our SOP and checklist) is to make sure that the prop control mechanism is still engaged. We do it twice on the first flight of the day, but the second time is (IMO) more to flush the oil in the prop servomechanism.

Regarding autofeather, I'm pretty sure we test it every leg to avoid rejecting a takeoff due to "DING DING DING, TAKEOFF AUTOFEATHER" (power levers advanced, delay timer expired and no ARMED light)—which does happen from time to time. We'd rather catch it on taxi out than run the risk of a high speed RTO.

Very interesting.

The only check we do on the autofeather on every leg is just to make sure it's armed on takeoff. If it arms, PNF calls AFX armed, then PF calls set takeoff power, power set, etc. That all has to be done by the 70 kts call, so if the AFX doesn't arm you just abort right then.
 
Very interesting.

The only check we do on the autofeather on every leg is just to make sure it's armed on takeoff. If it arms, PNF calls AFX armed, then PF calls set takeoff power, power set, etc. That all has to be done by the 70 kts call, so if the AFX doesn't arm you just abort right then.
The ARMED light is on the overhead; I glance at it.
 
LOL. Did you tell him "sorry, I'm used to to a twin with *ahem* cajones..."

Now, I don't know about these Garretts with their "Autocoursen" wierdness.

SAAB is GE CT7 - free turbine. Autocoarsen per SAAB is movement of the blade to create rapid reduction in drag during initial climb when the computer senses failure. I believe the blade goes to 55 degrees - basically the same function as auto feather. Full feathering is then completed via the condition lever at acceleration altitude if it happened below that point.

On top of the autocoarsen you get a 7% increase in torque from the Automatic power reserve (assuming armed).

To add to another thread - Autocoarsen and manual feather pump tested first flight of the day. Autocoarsen switched on during after start checklist, light on the flight status panel plus it is a callout on the TO roll that it is in high (power) mode. Additionally you will get a master caution on the CWP if autocoarsen is not armed and the power levers advanced past a certain point.
 
SAAB is GE CT7 - free turbine. Autocoarsen per SAAB is movement of the blade to create rapid reduction in drag during initial climb when the computer senses failure. I believe the blade goes to 55 degrees - basically the same function as auto feather. Full feathering is then completed via the condition lever at acceleration altitude if it happened below that point.

On top of the autocoarsen you get a 7% increase in torque from the Automatic power reserve (assuming armed).

To add to another thread - Autocoarsen and manual feather pump tested first flight of the day. Autocoarsen switched on during after start checklist, light on the flight status panel plus it is a callous on the TO roll that it is in high (power) mode. Additionally you will get a master caution on the CWP if autocoarsen is not armed and the power levers advanced past a certain point.
That is a bit like the NTS(negative torque sensing) system on the Garrett. When it senses negative torque(prop driving engine type of scenario) on the torque tube, it brings the props coarse, or towards feather. You still have to manually take the condition lever to feather. The Garretts do fail safe though, like most props, it's oil pressure keeping it from feathering, so in the event of an engine failure or loss of oil it will eventually go to feather anyways.
This is not the same function as autofeather like the pratts do it though, and it sounds like the GE to. The pratts actually feather with no pilot input at all. It's the only thing I like about them.
 
Ours is a bit easier to scan for. It's on the center panel a little bit above and to the right of the ROLL DISC handle:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Nostrum-(Iberia/De-Havilland-Canada/0628640/L/&sid=dda50b7bcd928c292eabebda543f7d35
I hate your engine instrument stack, I just want to say that, but at least they're where both pilots can see them. Long treatise about why our props can kill us follows.

The prop governor on the Brasilia is like any other prop governor for the most part: it uses oil pressures working in opposition to get to equilibrium. High pressure oil is provided from the prop RGB pump to the governor. Supply oil drives the prop towards feather, and metered oil (prop governor output) moves the prop towards fine pitch. Moving the condition lever to FEATHER will dump metered oil pressure and allow supply oil to drive the prop towards feather. (It does engine control related things too, but that's not important right now.) The electric feathering system, activated by the ELEC FEATHER switch on the overhead, the autofeather system, or the engine fire T-handle, opens the feathering solenoid valve and activates the electric feather pump, which provides oil pressure that's even higher than supply oil pressure to drive the prop towards feather.

Here's the PCU (right) and prop servomechanism (left) on the 14RF9-EMB120-PW118 combination:
Screen Shot 2013-03-09 at 8.33.33 AM.png

(from the NTSB report into Acey's prop control accident)

Rube Goldberg himself could not have come up with a better design, but basically, the prop governor turns the transfer tube, which turns the pitch change screw in the prop dome, which moves the pitch selector valve, which allows oil to flow to one side or the other of the piston in the prop dome that actually moves the propeller blades. Note that oil pressure is required to drive the blades in either direction. In flight, with the propeller subject to air loads and especially at high airspeeds, the natural tendency is for the prop blades to go to fine pitch (which is backwards from what most multiengine airplanes have). In this respect, the prop is fail-deadly. There are a few ways you can kill yourself/get killed with this combination.

One is a loss of oil pressure. The propeller will start to move towards full fine pitch, then pitchlock—that is, it will freeze where it is. Pitchlock actuation is indicated to the pilots by an increase in Np, but then it'll stop about 2 to 4% higher than where it was set. The prop is basically fixed-pitch at this point and will behave as such (more airspeed = higher Np and so on). Hopefully, if you hit the electric feather switch, there'll be enough oil pressure to feather the prop. If the engine has really quit, putting the CL to FEATHER won't do anything, and you'll have to reach up and hit the ELEC FEATHER switch on the overhead to get the prop to feather. (Remember, oil pressure is REQUIRED to move the prop.) Pitchlock prevents (or helps prevent...) overspeed in the event of a loss of oil pressure, but it won't result in any decrease in prop drag if the engine has quit.

Another is moving the power lever below flight idle in flight. This disables ALL of the prop control safety features and you'll rapidly get a propeller overspeed. The bad news is that above a certain Np (~120%), the electric feathering system does not have sufficient authority to decrease the prop's pitch. So, yeah. Don't do that. Ever. We have a solenoid in each engine nacelle that should mechanically prevent the selection of a power lever angle below flight idle in flight.

The failure mode, though, that was discovered on one of the ASA accidents, is a little more involved. The Rube Goldberg contraption in the PCU that engages and turns the transfer tube has failed before - and you wind up with a prop you can't control. In the case of ASA, the PCU would be asking for feather (indeed, the accident aircraft's left PCU was found in the 79.2-degree feather position), but the prop would happily go to full fine pitch and stay there. There's not a thing you can do about it. When the system was originally certificated, the probability of that failure was determined to be extremely remote (10e-6) and so no redundancy was required. The probability of that failure remained extremely remote until Hamilton Sunstrand changed the manufacturing process and titanium nitrided the splines (I guess it was cheaper). The harder material resulted in PCU wear so great that, in post-accident inspection of certain EMB 120 aircraft, the mechanics could not re-engage the transfer tube.

(That's one of those Code Brown/cold sweat moments, if you ask me.)

Incidentally, this failure mode can be caught by a before takeoff manual feather-unfeather check ("Observe consistent Np anytime a propeller is feathered, by whichever means..."). And in fact, it has been caught by that manual feather-unfeather check.

The net result is that titanium nitrided splines are no longer used and we baby the crap out of the props on the Brasilia.

(threadjack over, but I like talking about this stuff, so I'll subject you all to it!)
 
SAAB is GE CT7 - free turbine. Autocoarsen per SAAB is movement of the blade to create rapid reduction in drag during initial climb when the computer senses failure. I believe the blade goes to 55 degrees - basically the same function as auto feather. Full feathering is then completed via the condition lever at acceleration altitude if it happened below that point.

On top of the autocoarsen you get a 7% increase in torque from the Automatic power reserve (assuming armed).

To add to another thread - Autocoarsen and manual feather pump tested first flight of the day. Autocoarsen switched on during after start checklist, light on the flight status panel plus it is a callout on the TO roll that it is in high (power) mode. Additionally you will get a master caution on the CWP if autocoarsen is not armed and the power levers advanced past a certain point.
64 degree switch! What type of props do you have on your Saab? We had both the dowty's and the Hamilton standards. They weren't too terribly different but you could tell the quickness of the autocoarsen. If you really want to screw with someone and you have a GPU hooked up lean over and hit the man feather pump. :)
 
SAAB is GE CT7 - free turbine. Autocoarsen per SAAB is movement of the blade to create rapid reduction in drag during initial climb when the computer senses failure. I believe the blade goes to 55 degrees - basically the same function as auto feather. Full feathering is then completed via the condition lever at acceleration altitude if it happened below that point.

On top of the autocoarsen you get a 7% increase in torque from the Automatic power reserve (assuming armed).

To add to another thread - Autocoarsen and manual feather pump tested first flight of the day. Autocoarsen switched on during after start checklist, light on the flight status panel plus it is a callout on the TO roll that it is in high (power) mode. Additionally you will get a master caution on the CWP if autocoarsen is not armed and the power levers advanced past a certain point.

Interesting, thanks! Having never had anything to do with either Garretts or GE engines, I was just going on rumors and hearsay... :-0

We have power uptrim (up to 10%), so very similar. Thanks to Autothrust as well. I'll admit, I was lost about a sentence and a half in. I 'll have to read through that two or three times before I get it. Is it just me or should the engineer who designed that be taken behind the woodshed and shot for designing that nonsense?
 
64 degree switch! What type of props do you have on your Saab? We had both the dowty's and the Hamilton standards. They weren't too terribly different but you could tell the quickness of the autocoarsen. If you really want to screw with someone and you have a GPU hooked up lean over and hit the man feather pump. :)

We have the Dowtys
 
this is a silly thread. In a large turbo prop like the dash you would have to have soooo many failures come into play for this scenario even occur that you might as well chock it up to a bad day and do what you can. your wasting valuable brain cells just thinking about it! Im all for being prepared for the worst but sometimes its just better to when all else fails to deal with the S*$& storm when it comes and seat of the plants fly it to safety instead of wasting your time thinking about what if.
 
Interesting, thanks! Having never had anything to do with either Garretts or GE engines, I was just going on rumors and hearsay... :-0

We have power uptrim (up to 10%), so very similar. Thanks to Autothrust as well. I'll admit, I was lost about a sentence and a half in. I 'll have to read through that two or three times before I get it. Is it just me or should the engineer who designed that be taken behind the woodshed and shot for designing that nonsense?
Actually I'm more pissed off at the guy who certificated it. The guy who certificated the system as a DER for Hamilton Sundstrand failed to properly evaluate the effects of the harder material on the PCU screw assembly.
 
this is a silly thread. In a large turbo prop like the dash you would have to have soooo many failures come into play for this scenario even occur that you might as well chock it up to a bad day and do what you can. your wasting valuable brain cells just thinking about it! Im all for being prepared for the worst but sometimes its just better to when all else fails to deal with the S*$& storm when it comes and seat of the plants fly it to safety instead of wasting your time thinking about what if.
Yes, well, and then it happens.
 
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