trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
I don't know but it certainly seems logical to me. I know of only one or two people who are immediately comfortable in any airplane they fly. It's possible that they just fake it well. That aint me.
1500TT minimums ?
- Thread starter Pilot27usa
- Start date
I don't know but it certainly seems logical to me. I know of only one or two people who are immediately comfortable in any airplane they fly. It's possible that they just fake it well. That aint me.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
So we're doing this discussion again eh? Now that I am a year into this gig I can confirm that the ATP rule is bullcrap. All it does is push good people/pilots to the streets. Keep in mind there are a few on here who will likely not have jobs in August due to age or time. They will no longer be eligible for their CURRENT job. What a bunch of crap.
I have seen ZERO situations where 1500 hr rule would affect the safety of our flights. However on several occasions my 15,000 hour captains have been as useful as a 100 hr fresh IFR pilot after no sleep--but fatigue isn't an issue.
I have seen ZERO situations where 1500 hr rule would affect the safety of our flights. However on several occasions my 15,000 hour captains have been as useful as a 100 hr fresh IFR pilot after no sleep--but fatigue isn't an issue.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
... so, you've been in the business a whole year and you don't see the potential benefit from raising hiring requirements? And yes, Fatigue is definitely an issue. That's why there are regs pending on that issue as well.
.. as for people who won't meet the new requirements- are you one of them?
juxtapilot
Snowflake
I've been in 121 for a year, yes. And I will most likely meet the mins by August. However I think its really disgusting to kick people to the street. I am an OK pilot now just as I was when I was hired and will be when I finally hit that 1500 mark.
This rule is absolutely stupid and is our way to pull up the ladder and screw people who haven't made it yet. Disgusting.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
This rule is absolutely stupid and is our way to pull up the ladder and screw people who haven't made it yet. Disgusting.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
juxtapilot
Snowflake
BTW, a lot of my new hire class was sub 1k TT and did very well during training. Now they have raised minimums and are having trouble finding qualified (good) pilots. Yea that's a real improvement in safety alright.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
Let's see, I had to have at least 1200 tt, 100 night, 75 inst, and I belive 500 xc to fly boxes around in crappy weather, but it's not ok to demand that both pilots up front in an airliner of all things have 1500 tt?
juxtapilot
Snowflake
Correct. That single pilot 135 gig is a hell of a lot more difficult than flying an RJ. I haven't flown 135, but dayum flying an RJ is not difficult.
I guess I don't really take issue with the ATP rule completely-though I think 1500 hours is a little much.
I do however think it's SICK and a D-Bag move to suddenly make people ineligible for their CURRENT job. Do people not understand that this will mean people will lose their jobs? They will lose their homes. They will be struggling to make ends meet. Their family life may struggle. All because of a knee-jerk reaction in response to FATIGUE.
"Man as an individual is a genius. But men in masses form the headless monster, a great, brutish idiot that goes where prodded."
scooter2525
Very well Member
I can understand where you are coming from, but I would be curious to how many people who will loose their jobs from this bought a house within a year or two of hire... On FO pay?
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
It's been quite a long time since this has been passed... I'd be willing to bet there is no more than a dozen or so people that don't have 1500 hours when it becomes active.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
So what if it were you? Some of those pilots may have families that are relying on them... Quite honestly, we're terrible people to not care. It's not like these people haven't worked hard to get where they are.
There will be a few. More than a dozen industry wide, that's for sure. Probably 4 or 5 at my company who will not meet 1500 hours. Hell, I'm a little nervous. I know for a fact there are at least 4 who will not meet the age requirement.
We have a member on here who bought a house before working as a pilot. He will not be 23 in August. He will lose his job. Can he collect unemployment? Doubtful. He's getting screwed.
I can afford a house, but I choose not to purchase one. Could I afford it if I lost my job? No.
The ATP rule shares the slogan with the TSA. "We keeping the people safe." I call B.S.
I don't mean to keep ranting about this but you guys need to understand that people are getting royally *bleep* because of this. And for what? I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling pulling the ladder up with someone already climbing it. What a terrible thing to do. It's disgusting.
Dphoenix
Love lasagna, hate mondays
I just want to thank you for not being affected by the rule but still supporting those of us who are being affected by it.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
How long since this passed? Over a year, yeah? Well over, I think? I believe pilots are supposed to able to do arithmetic, but maybe someone should have written some instructions..."Take how old you are now, then add the amount of time until the legislation takes effect. If the result is less than 23, you should probably start making a plan."
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
Thank God! I was gonna say. Yeah it sucks that you might be screwed out of a job when this takes affect, but if you were hired within the last year or so you definitely knew you were at least at risk. Make some plans.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
The simple fact that the airline knew that this rule was coming and STILL hired pilots who would not meet the standard shows that they do not care about hiring qualified pilots. "As long as we can stuff a warm body in the right seat for a few more months, that's all that matters."
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
USMCmech said:
Pilot shortage? 8)
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Pilot "shortage" at the bottom feeder airlines.
Airlines that may go out of business because they can't attract ATP qualified pilots to come work for their crappy pay scales. Which I see as a good thing in the long term.
I do feel bad for the small number of pilots who will get furloughed until they can meet ATP mins. However raising the standards to be an airline pilot will be good for the industry overall.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
USMCmech said:
Surprised not like other laws that those already flying would be grandfathered. Only new hires would be the issue.
Also, what do the unions say about it?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I don't think anybody wants to see anybody lose their job. That's really not what it's all about.
That said, this idea started in **2009**. The original legislation making it law passed in 2010. We all knew it was coming at that point. Everybody not meeting ATP mins and requirements when they applied for a job took a gamble that they'd be grandfathered and/or exempted. The problem with that is this: if all hired/flying the line/pooled pilots, etc.. were grandfathered, what would stop a company from stockpiling 250 hour commercial pilots? The FAA took a good hard look and realized that circumventing the entire point of the reg for those few in the system that still fell short completely undermined the whole regulation.
1500 hours, as it were, isn't just about training or proficiency. More than anything, it's about culture.
A pilot with the credentials to go many places will not go to the first or only place that will hire them.
A pilot who knows they have marketable options is less likely to allow themselves to be pushed. Ever wonder why some regional airlines passed over 3000 hour ATPs for 250 hour commercial CFIs? Or why they were so eager to snap up 250 hour commercial pilots in the first place?
It's not about stick and rudder skills- it never was. It was about taking pilots with no place else to go and no recourse when pushed to make the wrong choice out of the equation. And it's not a quick fix, either. Over the next few years airline culture will change a lot. So will we. And yes, unfortunately, it might mean a hiccup or two along the way for those just starting out. That's unfortunate, but when you realign a metric, it's nearly inevitable.
We'll all weather this process- no matter where we are. In time, things will be better for everybody all across the industry.
That said, this idea started in **2009**. The original legislation making it law passed in 2010. We all knew it was coming at that point. Everybody not meeting ATP mins and requirements when they applied for a job took a gamble that they'd be grandfathered and/or exempted. The problem with that is this: if all hired/flying the line/pooled pilots, etc.. were grandfathered, what would stop a company from stockpiling 250 hour commercial pilots? The FAA took a good hard look and realized that circumventing the entire point of the reg for those few in the system that still fell short completely undermined the whole regulation.
1500 hours, as it were, isn't just about training or proficiency. More than anything, it's about culture.
A pilot with the credentials to go many places will not go to the first or only place that will hire them.
A pilot who knows they have marketable options is less likely to allow themselves to be pushed. Ever wonder why some regional airlines passed over 3000 hour ATPs for 250 hour commercial CFIs? Or why they were so eager to snap up 250 hour commercial pilots in the first place?
It's not about stick and rudder skills- it never was. It was about taking pilots with no place else to go and no recourse when pushed to make the wrong choice out of the equation. And it's not a quick fix, either. Over the next few years airline culture will change a lot. So will we. And yes, unfortunately, it might mean a hiccup or two along the way for those just starting out. That's unfortunate, but when you realign a metric, it's nearly inevitable.
We'll all weather this process- no matter where we are. In time, things will be better for everybody all across the industry.