A Running ATP experience thread

ozziecat35

4 out of 5 great lakes prefer Michigan.
There's been a lot of "is ATP good or bad" going on and since I'm just starting at ATP ( first 2 sims were this past weekend), I was curious if anyone would be interested if I kept a running log? I already have my ppl and instrument, so I'm starting at the multi engine rating for the ppl. I'd be happy to answer questions as I go and give opinions within the realm of reason. If it helps, I'm at the Chicago location, so pretty small, 3 instructors, 2 cessnas & 2 Seminoles.

Yea or nay?
 
Actually, I'm interested as I am planning to get my ATP in September or October. Now my background is a bit different, I'm a military pilot, around 3000 hours in turbo-prop and jet so I'm not sure which particular program I have to go through.
 
Actually, I'm interested as I am planning to get my ATP in September or October. Now my background is a bit different, I'm a military pilot, around 3000 hours in turbo-prop and jet so I'm not sure which particular program I have to go through.
You can probably save yourself 2 grand by finding a Seminole at a local airport.
 
I'm not a fan of zero to hero in 90 days and then teaching the next generation. YMMV...
It is not zero to hero in 90 days. Zero flight time is 5 months. It takes 2 months to get a private pilot license. 2 FULL TIME months. That is an awful lot longer than a lot of schools advertise. It takes over a month, again full time, to get your IFR rating.
 
I'm not a fan of zero to hero in 90 days and then teaching the next generation. YMMV...

I totally agree with you. There is so much information to learn that it’s very difficult to absorb everything in a short timeframe.

So my question is if ATP student are considered to just meet “Min Standards” and train to just pass checkride’s then why is it that most of them end up getting jobs at the Regional’s? I haven’t found any data points that illustrate how local FBO stack up with ATP regarding job placement with the Regional’s but it appears that a lot of ATP grads get placed with airlines. I assume most of them do fairly well and become another success story. At least that’s the ones you hear about.

I understand that each school and individuals are different but my experience has been many local FBO’s end up nickel and diming you (at least in the Chicagoland are so YMMV) so the fixed price may not be a bad thing if you can avoid the debt.
 
So my question is if ATP student are considered to just meet “Min Standards” and train to just pass checkride’s then why is it that most of them end up getting jobs at the Regional’s? I haven’t found any data points that illustrate how local FBO stack up with ATP regarding job placement with the Regional’s but it appears that a lot of ATP grads get placed with airlines. I assume most of them do fairly well and become another success story. At least that’s the ones you hear about.
Yes crazy huh? I know of at least one ATP grad who is currently the DO of one of the larger regional airlines.
 
I'm not a fan of zero to hero in 90 days and then teaching the next generation. YMMV...

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you need to take into account not everyone is coming from the SJS mindset. My reasons for using ATP (bearing in mind I have my PPL from a Pt. 61 program back in 2007 and my instrument from the same school pt. 141) are entirely based on the fact that this is how I'm getting the VA to pay for my flight training. If I could get the VA to pay for all my ratings at the little uncontrolled field pt. 61, yeah, I'd be rocking that, but beggars can't be choosers. Just as with anything in life, take everything w/ a grain of salt, and keep an open mind.

With that being said, I'll begin a running tab of my experiences. Enjoy!
 
Ok, the official first post of my ATP experience thread. I supposed it would help out having some back story, so bare with me. I should also thank one of our JC'ers who gave me the idea for this thread...Heath. He did a similar thing, but it was a while ago, so I thought maybe a refreshed look would be helpful.

First off, I'm Matt. I'm 28 and live in Chicago with my wife and 3 year old daughter. I work in IT for a National Laboratory and am pretty secure in my job. Flying has been a goal of mine since the early 2000's, I joined the Army in 2002 and did 4 years. When I got out I expected it to be easier to get the VA to pay for flight training, not so much. Anywho, I got my PPL and Instrument out in Phoenix in 2007 at the Glendale Municipal Airport. Since then, flying has taken a back seat to having kids and trying to pay the bills. Fast forward to last year when the Post 9-11 GI Bill made changes to allow for flight training when pursuing a degree at an IHL. About 12 months ago is when I got the process started with Mountain State University, who has an aviation degree program in conjunction with ATP. Because MSU is a private institution, I'm capped at $17,500 per academic year, plus another $8,000 through the yellow ribbon program, totaling up to $25,500 an academic year for available funding. Point of the story is, it has taken a long time, and I'm one of the first GI Bill students to go through the program, so I've kind of been a test case.

Once the paperwork got figured out, I talked with the aviation program director at MSU and we came up with a plan based on where I was at experience wise. Because I already have my PPL, I'm starting at ATP at the Multi-Engine add on phase. I have 2 things working against me here. 1, I have no ME experience, & 2, I've been out of the flying game for quite a while, so basic knowledge (Regs / Std. PPL Maneuvers , etc) are all a bit foreign to me right now, so I've had to really apply myself to "relearn" these things...A Tomato Flames Flaps anyone?

So this past Saturday the 7th of July, I arrived at the Chicago ATP location at the Dupage Airport (KDPA) and met my CFI Joel. First impressions were that this is a very small location. They have only 3 CFI's and 4 aircraft, 2 172's and 2 2000 year Seminoles. At 7 am we began the check in process where Joel made copies of my Passport, DL, Medical, Pilot Certificate, and the last page of my logbook. I received the Syllabus binder, Integrated flight flow checklist from the PA-44, Condensed Inflight checklist, and Maneuvers guide. Once that was complete, we made our way to the 1 Sim they have here, an Elite FTD. Joel helped me get familiarized with the sim set, and explained major differences between the sim and the aircraft. My biggest complaint here is that the sim is set up for a Piper Seneca, not a Seminole, so power settings are different and there was a lot of, "well, in the airplane, we'll do it a bit differently"...so much for integrated learning I guess. We did 1.5 in the sim going through the full startup checklists all the way. We ran through all the basic PPL ME maneuvers such as Steep Turns, Slow Flight, Power Off/On stalls. On day one we didn't do any engine out work, I think Joel realized I was already behind the airplane and didn't want to add further distractions. I came out of the sim feeling a bit dejected because of my self imposed perfectionist ideals...Day 2 was the next day, and the maneuvers went much better. We did quite a few VMC demos and I got my first "unexpected" engine failure that went relatively well.

Here I should note how important it is that you memorize the training supplement and speeds before hand. I'd say I was about 85% good going in, but the emergency checklist was key. (Mixtures/Props/Throttle full fwd, Flaps, Gear Up, Identify,Verify, Feather, Mixture cutoff on failed engine. *if the troubleshoot checklist was unsuccessful).
I would also recommend being very familiar with ATP speeds for maneuvers for everything from maneuver entry speeds to pattern speeds.

I am scheduled to do my first flight in the aircraft in a few days (I'm doing the self paced program do to my full time job) and I think I'll be able to get better feedback from the airplane about maneuvers than the sim.

*Initial thoughts, ATP is what it is, a program designed to get you your ratings. The burden of learning is really place solely on the students shoulders. You can bring questions to your instructor, but you need a solid base to start from. My biggest issue so far is the sim. Why would you use a sim that mimics a Seneca, when you fly Seminoles...I think the difference is big enough so as to almost cancel out any worthwhile learning.

That's it for now, I'll update here again after my first Seminole flight.

Matt
 
I totally agree with you. There is so much information to learn that it’s very difficult to absorb everything in a short timeframe.

So my question is if ATP student are considered to just meet “Min Standards” and train to just pass checkride’s then why is it that most of them end up getting jobs at the Regional’s? I haven’t found any data points that illustrate how local FBO stack up with ATP regarding job placement with the Regional’s but it appears that a lot of ATP grads get placed with airlines. I assume most of them do fairly well and become another success story. At least that’s the ones you hear about.

I understand that each school and individuals are different but my experience has been many local FBO’s end up nickel and diming you (at least in the Chicagoland are so YMMV) so the fixed price may not be a bad thing if you can avoid the debt.

I believe Jonathanf4's statement of "minimum standards" is correct. ATP gives you the tools, it is up to you to build yourself as pilot with the tools given to you. I met instructors at ATP who were useless and others that were good.

It's just like any other academy.

I'm not a fan of zero to hero in 90 days and then teaching the next generation. YMMV...

I agree with DE727UPS. I went though the program and I enjoyed the experience, but looking back I may have done it differently.
 
Matt, I see your doing the self-paced. Any issues you encounter as I heard on here that 90 day students get priority or favored more than self-paced?
 
I have been lurking on JC for a while and reading about ATP and on the recommendation of at least 3 former ATP grads that I personally know who went through the program and encouraged me to do it, I took the plunge. I am on the 90 day program as well. I received my PPL Oct 2011 and at the longest point had not flown in 90 days as I struggled to build PIC X/C time towards the instrument rating I knew i would be doing eventually.. When my family decided to pitch in on half the program cost it made it worthwhile to me to go through the 90 day fast track (the full 60 grand? Im thinking twice about it). ATP was extremely professional in signing me up and keeping me informed as well as staying flexible with my start date. I received all the items I was told that i was going to receive and immediately began memorizing the piper seminole supplement (great advice on memorizing the maneuvers and power settings, they were a challenge for me). I showed up ready to go and got my ME rating in the 9 days as advertised. I was more or less ready a few days prior but everything is set in stone as far as Sim/Flight time so you use it up even if your ready. The checkride was with a DPE that they choose which is good because they have a working relationship with them but at the same time he was kind of a d*ck. I will try and request the same examiner i had for my PPL but well see what happens. So far I am about 1/3 of the way through the instrument course and its been pretty basic so far, but I had done alot of instrument studying / flying (with CFI friends) prior to even enrolling in the program. "Full time" is very loosely defined. If you dont have a clue whats going on you will be 8+ hours a day for sure but if you are a nerd like me and always reading/studying then its a matter of putting alot of the items learned on the ground into use in the air and sim and meeting the necessary hour requirements.

My only gripes are the Sim is not calibrated and has a hard left rolling tendency which is super annoying while multi-tasking in simulated IMC, I was reassigned a new instructor (which i heard happens several times through any given 90 day program) that I more or less dont mesh with very well, and Ive seen alot of the ground sessions that are scheduled get skipped as in "just study that at home" and its most likely because the instructors only get paid for sim and flight time. I dont mind studying at home but I also want an instructor to expand on what the book says as well. I have seen a 150 day student who has been waiting on a solo endorsement for a week now because her instructor (who was mine as well) left prior to that and now she has to get rechecked out by one of the two very busy instructors there. I feel bad for her but its not a personal gripe of my own.

No self paced students at my location that I have met so i cant comment on the preference for fast track but I dont see that being a problem most likely. They definitely favor 90 day over 150 day though, at least until you get your PPL.

As far as the 60 days for PPL comment, botht the 150 and 90 day programs really are one-size-fits-all. I doubt half the people there need 60 days to get it done but ATP structures every ground, sim, and flight hour down to the last detail to cover anyone that walks through the door, for a fixed price. Thats not easy to do so they have to give plenty of buffer room. If you know your stuff you will breeze through.

Thats it for me now ill check back in later.
 
Time for a little update. I've completed 2 flights in the Seminole as of now. Did a flight 2 weeks ago to go through basic familiarization and handling characteristics. Went out west past Aurora and did all the PMEL Maneuvers to standard. Steep Turns (hit my wake rolling out...woot woot), Slow Flight, Pwr On/Off Stalls, VMC Demo, Simulated engine failure (throttle only), Emergency Descent, then went and shot the ILS back into Dupage. We went missed and did some pattern work to help get me comfortable with the required pattern callouts. On the 3rd and last trip around the pattern my CFI pulled the throttle on the left engine so I got to run through that checklist once more and landed it "engine out." Came away feeling very confident and happy with the flight overall, but definitely exposed the areas I needed to refresh (Instrument Procedures, Seminole Flows.)

I did one or two more sims after that in the ensuing 2 weeks, then just went flying yesterday with my new CFI Nate. He's not new new, just transferred from one of the New York locations. Really nice guy and we seemed to gel instantly. We were originally scheduled to do a sim then flight, but since it was nice and cool and I'm in no hurry at this point, we decided to go fly before it got too windy. Out to one of the Seminoles, preflighted, and away we go back out West. Again, ran through all the maneuvers (flows were much better this time), did a few VMC demos, then got my first actual engine failure (Mixture pulled). I had Nate take the controls while I got the obligatory feathered engine picture.

622320_10151077917579720_487654264_o.jpg


We set up for the RNAV/GPS 27 approach into Dekalb then I was able to fly without too much bumbling...I struggled initially remembering how the GPS talks to the HSI, and which GPS talks to which GPS. Once Nate set me straight I was set. After we went missed I got to go a full turn in holding at the SIMMN intersection (http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1208/06050R27.PDF) then Nate had me take him back to Dupage showing me some good area reference points on the way.

Nate had me setup for a short field landing, and in the flair I ballooned a bit and didn't like what I saw so did a go around and came back the next time and stuck it. 2.3 in the logbook and I think we're taking next weekend off for my birthday, so maybe the sim afterwards, then 2 flights and then my checkride! AHHH!!!!
 
Another flight yesterday after getting canceled due to weather on Monday. Joel and I blasted off to the west towards Dekalb, engine failure and secure at 5,500'. Airstart and then the PMEL maneuvers that all went well (Steeps/Slow Flight/Pwr Off Stalls/Pwr On Stalls/VMC Demo/Emergency Descent). We then set up for the ILS to runway 9 at Aurora (KARR) single engine, it was a little sloppy as Joel let me play with flap settings before setting me straight (Flaps 25/about 20" MP on the good engine will set you up nicely for the ILS FYI), went missed and back out West for another try, this one went much better. We then circled to the South and landed single engine on 27, then did a short field takeoff on 33, engine failure in the upwind (simulated) and single engine pattern back to 33, which was ugly...too close, too high, I landed nicely, but the approach was not pretty.

We headed back to Dupage and setup for a short field to Rwy 10, but during the Gear Down checklist, did not get a gear light for the right main. Switched the bulbs, no change, jiggled the airplane around, no change, interestingly cycling the nav lights got the indicator to come on. We were confident it was an indicator issue, so continued the approach. I got a bit slow over the fence and in turn actually heard the stall horn in the flare (which is apparently not supposed to happen in the Seminole) and dropped it on...not the prettiest thing in the world, but it's still in one piece.

Maneuvers are looking good, so no need to work on them tomorrow, just single engine ILS approaches and single engine pattern work along with short field landings tomorrow. Checkride on Saturday!!
 
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