Doing that good old dual given in the area.

jhugz said:
This is why some 61 would be good for the GFK airport. I could go do maneuvers under VFR flight following with App, and be 100% safer then you in the practice area making radio calls on a random freq that not everyone is on over made up non-FAA approved VFR waypoints. Let me give you a pro-tip, get your nose out of the UND SOPs and don't ever lecture me about how UND does it again. I'm legal, safe, and a damn good instructor. I've got the diversity in flight instruction that you seem to lack. ATC can't expect something out of you that isn't regulatory. Don't drop the professional line on me because you obviously don't have the critical thinking skills to operate in a non-rote challenging environment. Before you start dropping safety and professional remarks, have a leg to stand on.

I challenge you to find a SOP or Reg I busted in my 'top gun' soft field takeoff. Sorry in the real world, not the UND bubble, people can safely operate aircraft without pretending it being an RJ.
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First off, the frequencies are standard air-to-air frequencies, 122.75 and 122.85. Secondly the VFR waypoints are approved by the air traffic control facilities in the area, because when you are using them, that's who you're talking to. There are no "non-FAA approved waypoints on random frequencies that not everyone is on." I'm not trying to lecture you about how UND enters a damned traffic pattern and you have to follow their way, I'm trying to suggest that maybe you could maybe ask the locals what the standard procedures are. Its not "Because you have to" its "being a good neighbor" because the last thing anybody needs when five flights are coming down an arrival route- one that if you took five minutes to call up the ATC facility they would be happy to share with you if you asked nicely - is to have to deviate for some bag doing ground refs right outside the Delta.

P.S. Before you drop the rote line on me, maybe meet me in person first? You'll see that i'm not just some asshat that thinks the UND way is the only way.

P.P.S. My student thinks you're an idiot, thank you for setting the bar low.
 
Again, you don't know any better, because you know nothing but UND. You think transient aircraft are going to be using those air to air freqs? You think they're going to know the VFR practice areas? No, they're talking with a radar facility and getting VFR advisories. You obviously have no clue how a LOA works, and are trying to pass off UND SOPs as gospel. I teach people the FAA way, not the UND way. Maybe that's why my students would be able to handle ISN? Something to think about, no? Standard procedures are outlined in the AIM/FAR not the fly by numbers coloring book that UND uses. Another pro-tip, look outside and see and avoid instead of relying on some jacked up program a UND professor came up with. E/G airspace isn't owned by UND, you guys can share. You obviously come on strong with the UND Pom-poms, my suggestion is to get out of the environment at some point and make your own PIC decisions. Your student thinks I'm an idiot because you think I am. He probably doesn't know any better, which then in turn reinforms my opinion of your stupidity.
 
jhugz said:
Again, you don't know any better, because you know nothing but UND. You think transient aircraft are going to be using those air to air freqs? You think they're going to know the VFR practice areas? No, they're talking with a radar facility and getting VFR advisories. You obviously have no clue how a LOA works, and are trying to pass off UND SOPs as gospel. I teach people the FAA way, not the UND way. Maybe that's why my students would be able to handle ISN? Something to think about, no? Standard procedures are outlined in the AIM/FAR not the fly by numbers coloring book that UND uses. Another pro-tip, look outside and see and avoid instead of relying on some jacked up program a UND professor came up with. E/G airspace isn't owned by UND, you guys can share. You obviously come on strong with the UND Pom-poms, my suggestion is to get out of the environment at some point and make your own PIC decisions. Your student thinks I'm an idiot because you think I am. He probably doesn't know any better, which then in turn reinforms my opinion of your stupidity.
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You think transient GA aircraft are going to be talking with the radar facility? Last I checked, there's no legal requirement to do that either but some of them do because it's safer and therefore smart. You're right though, I keep the Flight Ops manual right next to my Bible at home. Read the flight ops manual during the morning constitutional, bible in the evening!

Many many students have unsat my stage checks because they couldn't differentiate when to do exactly what the STAN manual says, and when to apply basic airmanship. In fact, on just about every page of every stan manual it says NOTE: Changing conditions require adjustments.

And you're absolutely right about the ADS-B gizmo becoming a crutch, I've had a couple of very close calls myself that have proven otherwise. Learning from experience.

My student thinks you're an idiot because you made yourself look like one on departure today. And not that it matters, but this wasn't a "he."

But you're right, I'm stupid, shouldn't ever touch an airplane because only someone with your chuck yeager stick and rudder skills combined with your clay lacy wit and wright brothers mastery of common sense. I'll go turn in my resignation now.
 
Some people A lot of people can suck all the fun out of flying.

Jhugz, UR DANGURUS!
I think I have an idea of what you did, and I'm sure you didn't exceed any limitations... so. um? I don't see where there's a problem. Sometimes it's fun. Oh crap... fun. Now I'm dangerous!

You two get over yourselves.
 
I was going to put my moderator hat on and chastise the childish name calling going on in this thread, and suggest that it would be more productive (and less disruptive to Derg's living room) to stick with discussing the points rather than disparaging persons, but....well.....irony rules! :D

jhugz said:
...reinforms my opinion of your stupidity.
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Jhugz, are you willing to make an hour drive up to Park River, ND? Lots of DEEP pockets up there and lots of interest in aviation. A few more may have even bought airplanes. No instructors though. I was the only instructor up there before I left. PM me if you'd like some contact info. At the very least, there's 2 guys(my former students) that wouldn't mind a BFR and/or some high wind practice with an instructor. They have a Cherokee Six these days last time I was in contact with them.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Speaking of professional, Jhugz, you going to be teaching all of your students how to do soft field takeoffs in the Metroliner? Or do you one day plan to grow up? Being "top gun" on this discussion forum is one thing, but don't go ball one up trying to look slick.
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NotSureIfSerious.png

He's in a freight plane buddy! The boxes aren't going to complain. The short/soft combo is not unsafe and therefore he did nothing wrong. Settle. This attitude is what got UND barred from Air Wisconsin for half a decade.
 
Doing flight training out of GFK is the same as doing it out of any busy D or C airport... I never worried about UND, just cleared an area in uncontrolled airspace and went about my business. I didn't have much luck with approach giving me advisories outside their immediate arrival and departure corridors so I generally would just monitor CTAF for whatever local airport I was going to. Tried a couple times to make reports on 122.75 and 122.85 and was scolded by some UNDer for being on "their" frequency. I really didn't feel like making a big deal over it so I just kept my head on a swivel for green and white planes doing stupid stuff near me. If you're a non UND aircraft, ATC could care less if you know the UND reporting points or departure procedures. I would be given a traffic pattern entry and exit just like any other controlled field. The only frustrating things they'd do would be asking me to report 3 DME on every approach... Even in IMC... When I was filed as /U. Also, they periodically would warn me that I appeared to be deviating from the VOR approach when I was well within it, but was the only plane without a precise G1000 shooting the approach.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
 
gotWXdagain said:
Many many students have unsat my stage checks because they couldn't differentiate when to do exactly what the STAN manual says, and when to apply basic airmanship.
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IMO a student should learn basic airmanship from day one and not touch a SOP for a long time. Personally I would rather them not touch one till after getting their commercial. SOPs are an easy concept to grasp while some basic airmanship needs experience and mistakes to learn. If a SOP is given to students on day one how are they able to learn what the concept of airmanship even is?

Also not knowing aircraft such as a metro does not qualify a negative remark. A heavy metro can and will climb like a dog when it is hot. Especially when temps are just cool enough to not require AWI. I have done a couple takeoffs that may have looked like a soft field because of that.
 
pwttogfk said:
Tried a couple times to make reports on 122.75 and 122.85 and was scolded by some UNDer for being on "their" frequency.
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Not sure if you were here still when the chief had that discussion in the flight ops meeting that went something like: "Hey Geniuses, 122.75 and 122.85 aren't OUR frequencies, they're GENERAL frequencies!" Personally I was always glad to hear you on the freq because when there are 5 airplanes in the practice area and only two are talking, red aluminum makes the same crunching noise as green aluminum.

Maurus said:
IMO a student should learn basic airmanship from day one and not touch a SOP for a long time. Personally I would rather them not touch one till after getting their commercial. SOPs are an easy concept to grasp while some basic airmanship needs experience and mistakes to learn. If a SOP is given to students on day one how are they able to learn what the concept of airmanship even is?
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Absolutely 100% agree with you. I think its a damned shame that brand new pilots are forced into a very strict SOP that greatly emphasizes the "what" and almost completely ignores the "how" or "why".

Also not knowing aircraft such as a metro does not qualify a negative remark. A heavy metro can and will climb like a dog when it is hot. Especially when temps are just cool enough to not require AWI. I have done a couple takeoffs that may have looked like a soft field because of that.
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First off, doing the "soft field" and then pulling up into a steep climb probably isn't going to happen light. Secondly, I don't at all doubt that what he did was within the capability of the aircraft. I don't know how Encore runs their operation, but if I owned the aircraft, I wouldn't be very happy finding out it was operated in such a manner. Not from a concept of "operating limits" but more from a perspective of "safety" and especially in this case "professionalism." If you want to go out in your whatever it is you own and do those things to show off, have fun.

I fly the airplanes the way I expect the owner wants them to be flown, why does that all of a sudden mean I'm an SOP baby?

<edited to fix quote function: Steve C>
 
gotWXdagain said:
First off, doing the "soft field" and then pulling up into a steep climb probably isn't going to happen light. Secondly, I don't at all doubt that what he did was within the capability of the aircraft. I don't know how Encore runs their operation, but if I owned the aircraft, I wouldn't be very happy finding out it was operated in such a manner. Not from a concept of "operating limits" but more from a perspective of "safety" and especially in this case "professionalism." If you want to go out in your whatever it is you own and do those things to show off, have fun.

I fly the airplanes the way I expect the owner wants them to be flown, why does that all of a sudden mean I'm an SOP baby?
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Since you have zero experience with airplanes more complex then a Seminole your mouth should be shut on the topic. You do realize I never got slower then Vy right? You comparing your Seminole to my metro is idiotic. Secondly you have no clue what my SOPs are at my company. I know for a fact that our FAA approved metro checklists, memory items, SOPs, and profiles are less then the UND skyhawk ones. The simple fact you keep ignoring is you haven't a clue what you're talking about. I have legitimate reasons for climbing like a bat out of hell on certain days, let alone it being a blast. So keep running your mouth, ND professional aviation, is a small community and you're already doing wonders for yourself.

<edited to fix quote function: SteveC>
 
jhugz said:
I challenge you to find a SOP or Reg I busted in my 'top gun' soft field takeoff. Sorry in the real world, not the UND bubble, people can safely operate aircraft without pretending it being an RJ.
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What was the take-off that you performed?
 
Stayed in ground effect to accelerate as rapidly as possible, then pitched for Vy to clear the traffic pattern in altitude as quickly as possible.
 
Meh, I just don't see what the big deal is in having a little fun in an airplane with no passengers on board.
 
As former student/instructor from UND, I agree and disagree, and I'm going to defend UND a bit here. Yes, I realize your comment was mostly tongue in cheek. :D

There really is only a handful of instructors and leads that really suck all the fun out of everything and are truly deep into the UND bubble(every place has bubbles by the way). This minority is loud and proud however and ruins it for everyone. I can think of one lead in particular that single handedly made things tense and uneasy for anyone doing AirChina training.

Honestly, I've done both FBO and UND training and UND isn't that much different. Just like an FBO, your training varies from instructor to instructor. Really, the only thing I see different is that there's a policy that you MUST carry boots, hat, and gloves between November and March.
 
gotWXdagain said:
First off, doing the "soft field" and then pulling up into a steep climb probably isn't going to happen light. Secondly, I don't at all doubt that what he did was within the capability of the aircraft. I don't know how Encore runs their operation, but if I owned the aircraft, I wouldn't be very happy finding out it was operated in such a manner. Not from a concept of "operating limits" but more from a perspective of "safety" and especially in this case "professionalism." If you want to go out in your whatever it is you own and do those things to show off, have fun.

I fly the airplanes the way I expect the owner wants them to be flown, why does that all of a sudden mean I'm an SOP baby?

<edited to fix quote function: Steve C>
Click to expand...

You would be surprised how many cargo pilots will fly. A soft field take-off is one of the safer things you will see them do.
 
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