Does anyone know the story here?

I've noticed the controllers just don't have patience for the foreign guys at IWA. I've also noticed that I get treated differently dependent on the aircraft type I am flying into Gateway. Gateway has the only ILS in the valley that we can shoot PA's on. Otherwise, it's down to Casa Grande and another .5 or .6 on the clock. I was halfway down the ILS on a pre-checkride flight and got kicked off of the approach. Everything standard, on speed, and halfway down the pipe. Craziness. But, with the mix of airline, and training aircraft shooting 6 or 8 mile ILS's, it gets hectic over there. And the training aircraft are the first to get booted.

I get treated a little better in the Cirrus, but not much. Except for getting yelled at for taxiing to the taxiway edge line leaving the FBO... "N___, did I GIVE YOU CLEARANCE to taxi, sir?" "My present location is considered a non-movement area, isn't it?" "Yes, sir, it is, but for safety, you should have obtained clearance before moving." Shenanigans!! Gateway, and Fullerton are the only two airports I've had to deal with jerky controllers at, so far, in my short flying time. My fix was to tell them that I was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with the airfield, and got progressive. I've found that if I increase their workload when they become jerky, they stop yelling at me.

They may be former military controllers, but they are also retired FAA controllers, and guys who couldn't get into the FAA out of the military. Or guys who have a military CTO and washed out of the FAA. They're run by Serco. It was one of the towers I looked at prior to getting out in 08. Decided on Chandler instead, for obvious reasons.
 
ATC services were seemingly better when the AZ ANG ran the tower there prior to the contract op, after the field reopened again.
 
Canassis said:
Gateway has the only ILS in the valley that we can shoot PA's on.
Click to expand...

You can fly all the PAs you like at KPHX, in the middle of the night. Can even do pattern work there in the very early a.m.; unless something's changed.
 
Canassis said:
I get treated a little better in the Cirrus, but not much. Except for getting yelled at for taxiing to the taxiway edge line leaving the FBO... "N___, did I GIVE YOU CLEARANCE to taxi, sir?" "My present location is considered a non-movement area, isn't it?" "Yes, sir, it is, but for safety, you should have obtained clearance before moving." Shenanigans!! Gateway, and Fullerton are the only two airports I've had to deal with jerky controllers at, so far, in my short flying time. My fix was to tell them that I was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with the airfield, and got progressive. I've found that if I increase their workload when they become jerky, they stop yelling at me.
Click to expand...

I have never flown here but based on this thread I'm already convinced they are just a bunch of dicks and the FAA needs to send some people in to "review" operations.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
The responsibility of the controller is to separate aircraft. Keep planes clear of her, tell her you can no longer provide services due to saturation, and send her on her way. He had absolutely no business "making" her land. Hopefully he gets a little lesson in Section 2-1-1 of the 7110.65, which makes no mention of performing the duties of a FSDO.
Click to expand...

I understand that he had no business ordering her to land, but when you're at 3,500' above the ground, in an airplane, in his airspace, there's not a lot of recourse. Wouldn't simply ignoring the instruction to land be, in and of itself, seen as a violation? Short of calling the FSDO from the ground, I just don't see it going well to do anything other than landing and sorting it out on deck.

Professional guys (I include you in this, TF)... What would you do in this situation?
 
MikeD said:
You can fly all the PAs you like at KPHX, in the middle of the night. Can even do pattern work there in the very early a.m.; unless something's changed.
Click to expand...

Changed. No approaches to anything other than a full stop. And a taxi to the FBO. It WAS NOTAM'd. I needed a T/G for a local cross country, and was doing the transition at 2330. Asked for a T/G w Approach. No joy.
 
ATC: "Hey newbie idiot, land now at my airport, cuz you SUCK!"
Me: "Unable, proceeding direct Where-I-Want-To-Go"
ATC: "@$%^@!%%^@$%^@@#$"
Me: "Unable, clear of XYZ class Delta, changing frequency, good day sir".

Follow up.
FSDO: "Why were you unable?"
Me: "I was unfamiliar with the airport as it was not an intended destination, and did not have required information about that destination readily available in the cockpit, as PIC I did not feel it safe to operate an at unfamiliar airport without relevant airport diagrams available, and I felt that the controller was making requests that would endanger myself and other aircraft operating at that airport".
 
rframe said:
ATC: "Hey newbie idiot, land now at my airport, cuz you SUCK!"
Me: "Unable, proceeding direct Where-I-Want-To-Go"
ATC: "@$%^@!%%^@$%^@@#$"
Me: "Unable, clear of XYZ class Delta, changing frequency, good day sir".
Click to expand...

hahaha.... sounds like the way I would have handled that situation. Once you start replying with "Unable" it reminds controllers that you are PIC of your airplane. If she sounded a little more confident and replied with unable and departing their airspace the controller would have left it there. I guess she loss her confidence after she got the number for the tower.
 
If anything, this discussion about a bad aviator causing a contract controller to go on a power trip makes me never ever want to have ATC privatized in this country.

Don Brown was right: the level of service that the contract tower gave is far below that of an FAA tower. (my home field is a Federal training tower with a bunch of student pilots in the pattern. While voices might ratchet up an octave from time to time, CMA ATCT would never wet the bed like that.)

Edit for iPhone induced typo
 
I've flown A LOT in the Boston, NY and DC area, have heard pilots busting airspaces, and have never heard a controller doing something like this. The pilot of this plane should have had some better situational awareness it seems, but the controllers were both out of line. If a controller ever told me land because he deemed it necessary, I'd toss a quick "unable", squawk VFR and frequency change, "CYAAA!"
 
I think it just sucks because I've always been incredibly impressed with how cool and collected controllers seem - even in the presence of stupidity. The ones down here in FL do a much better job than I would dealing with broken English students (and Gulfstream FOs until recently).
 
Wow! One wonders who would have been held responsible if this poor girl had crashed or had some other kind of incident after this controller issued the instructions to land. Lawyers would have had a field day with that........

Bp244
 
Baronpilot244 said:
Wow! One wonders who would have been held responsible if this poor girl had crashed or had some other kind of incident after this controller issued the instructions to land. Lawyers would have had a field day with that........

Bp244
Click to expand...
That'd be a mess but once she accepts (what could be the most absurd ATC instruction I've ever been made aware of) it, she's legally bound by it. I am aware of an incident years ago where a student pilot was told to (position and hold) line up and wait by a controller, did so, and a corporate jet landed right over the airplane. During the followup, the controller's successful defense what the student pilot should have never, ever accepted such an unsafe clearance.
 
X-Forces said:
Interesting story.

Having triple digit landings into KIWA, I know that they can be sharpshooters at times. However, I am going to look into the legality of a controller instructing an aircraft to land against their wish.

I too would love to see the radar track of the aircraft, just to get an idea of what was going on. I have had a number of students that did, how shall we say... "odd things," in KIWA airspace. Then again I was always in the aircraft to fix things. Sending a solo student, particularly a foreign student, into the IWA-FFZ-PHX airspace is like basically inviting yourself to lunch at your local FSDO.

I would also like to know if the girl was indeed a PPL, and how the situation was resolved.
Click to expand...

Honestly even as an instructor flying GA in the Phoenix area was one of the most unpleasent things I've ever experienced while I was based in San Diego. After awhile I just told students that we'd head to Vegas or NorCal for cross countries cause I was so sick of Phoenix area airport controllers. Phoneix approach however was usually a joy to work with.
 
Soku39 said:
Honestly even as an instructor flying GA in the Phoenix area was one of the most unpleasent things I've ever experienced while I was based in San Diego. After awhile I just told students that we'd head to Vegas or NorCal for cross countries cause I was so sick of Phoenix area airport controllers. Phoneix approach however was usually a joy to work with.
Click to expand...
I'd like to add a shoutout to SoCal too. For the volume, complexity and constraints they operate under, they do an excellent job, and seldom get heated.
 
It also seemed to me that the controllers preferred to keep runway 12L/R/C in use so that they could deny all the practice instrument approaches into there. Just my observation when I was down there. ATIS would say runway 12 in use, guys would call up and request the ILS for practice and be turned down, guys would just turn around and go back home or go elsewhere. Whereas at other airports, I've been able to fly instrument approaches down to minimums on a parallel runway to the one in use in the opposite direction with traffic landing on the main runway. Other airports seem more accommodating than IWA.
 
Zondaracer said:
It also seemed to me that the controllers preferred to keep runway 12L/R/C in use so that they could deny all the practice instrument approaches into there. Just my observation when I was down there. ATIS would say runway 12 in use, guys would call up and request the ILS for practice and be turned down, guys would just turn around and go back home or go elsewhere. Whereas at other airports, I've been able to fly instrument approaches down to minimums on a parallel runway to the one in use in the opposite direction with traffic landing on the main runway. Other airports seem more accommodating than IWA.
Click to expand...

Back in the day, there was a HI-TACAN to 12 at IWA. In fact, RW 30 was the duty runway 95% of the time......it was almost an emergency to "reverse the pattern" to RW 12. Problem back in the AF days with RW 12 ops was the initial and outside downwind ops affecting FFZs south ops, being perpendicular runways..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top