"I'm not interested in the airlines"
- Thread starter USMCmech
- Start date
Itchy
Well-Known Member
Other than the paycheck, once I got over 30 years old, it no longer interested me. Regardless, that ship has sailed, and I never got on it. Been at the same place for nearly 20 years now, and not a huge paycheck, but huge stability and home nearly every night. I can actually name most of my kids friends.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I've always wanted to fly for the airlines. Now that I'm here, QOL and pay are more important. I do enjoy the flying, but all the BS that comes with it is tiresome. That being said, if I can find an airline job WITH the pay and QOL that would be my goal.
I do like that airline flying is easy. Not easy as in a private pilot could step right out of a 172 and do it with no training. Easy in that once you get into the groove, its really quite brainless. There are plenty of challenging approaches for those who "want to fly" but the option of having the autopilot take you almost to the ground is there too. Flights are planned for you. Always IFR.
The schedule blows...but hey, only 2 more years till the new rest rules /sarcasm
I do like that airline flying is easy. Not easy as in a private pilot could step right out of a 172 and do it with no training. Easy in that once you get into the groove, its really quite brainless. There are plenty of challenging approaches for those who "want to fly" but the option of having the autopilot take you almost to the ground is there too. Flights are planned for you. Always IFR.
The schedule blows...but hey, only 2 more years till the new rest rules /sarcasm
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I think what turned me off to being an airline pilot more than anything was the thought of having to listen to someone's neo-con political beliefs for four straight days. 
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Welp....traditionally, the top jobs in the biz are at the majors. Even with the cuts and all, I see these as pretty good jobs if you want to be a pilot when you grow up. How many Corporate or 135 jobs pay over 100K? How much movement will there be at the majors when the retirements start kicking in? It was all a crap shoot, but looking back on it I'd still have rather had a career at a major than any other flying job. The travel and time away from family is a downside, but some people like to travel. The webmaster is often posting pics from Bohemian beerfests and the like. Some people like to travel. I had 24 in Kona and 24 in Hono just a few weeks ago. Good times. Last night I had to ride jumpseat on SWA to get home cause the back was full. Capts W2 was 265K and I didn't hear him complaining about his job. In fact, he was looking forward to checking out the sushi place in Spokane I told him about. For all their faults, I think the majors are still going to be to the top tier jobs. Not what they were years ago, but still good flying jobs for those who can deal with the downsides. For those who want to be home every night and hate travel, well, yeah, you'll need to find something else. I have a friend who does EMS in a Pilatus who has a great schedule. He won't get rich but he seems very happy with it and the non-airline QOL. To each his own...
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
I have days that I love what I do. Then I have days where we end up operating at or around an international airport and I realize that if I had a 121 job (any, I repeat, any), my QOL would be infinitely better. I mean the QOL at Gulfstream/Silver Airways and Great Lakes is probably better than what I have now. I'll do my time here, but if the right 121 opportunity presents itself (turboprop type job, is what I'd really like to start with), I will have to think long and hard about it
bunk22
Well-Known Member
I do and with a military flying background, probably easier for me to get in with the likes of Southwest, FEDEX, etc. I said probably as I know a few military guys who had the quals and then some who did not get hired. You just never know and nothing is for sure. I see buddy's making 150k-250k as FO's, not including their retirement, making a decent living. If a job comes up flying Hawk's for BAe, I might consider it depending on the money and QOL.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
The aviation profession's a lot different than it was 30 years ago. So are a lot of other professions. Automation, IT technology, the passing of time, etc., have all changed things. Call the shot based on what's in front of you and what you think will happen. The airline gig is a bit harder than I ever expected it before I started it, but I gotta admit, I love love love it. Other kinds of flying may appeal too, but overall, it could be worse.
As I often tell people I fly with.. "I've never been shot at here... and never had to stir a big boiling bucket of burning poop." I mean that quite literally.
YMMV, no?
As I often tell people I fly with.. "I've never been shot at here... and never had to stir a big boiling bucket of burning poop." I mean that quite literally.
YMMV, no?
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
I think that this is an important topic because there is no question that the quality of the profession has degraded over time. That said, it is really unfair to comment on the question unless you have flown at the operations you are comparing. Many of the stereotypes about both are untrue, or dependent upon the airline or the corporate operator. Further, people OFTEN mis-characterize any operator that flies a business jet as "corporate" when in fact they may be charter (135) or fractional (91k). There's a big difference.
Over the course of my career I have had the privilege of flying for a variety of operators, from Part 135 night freight, to Part 135 scheduled passenger turboprop, to a variety of part 121 commuters, nationals, and majors. For the last almost 8 years I have been flying Part 91 for a Fortune 500 company. Based on that experience, when asked the question regarding whether or not airline flying is still appealing I can honestly say - It depends on the day.
That's probably not what you wanted to hear. When I was a kid I was born and bred airline. It's all I ever wanted to be and all I wanted to do. When I finally made it to the big leagues flying the very same DC9s and 737s that I used to cut school and ride my bike to the end of the runway to watch... it pretty much defined me. I loved every minute of it. I left the airlines out of desperation. Furlough, after furlough, after furlough was resulting in chronic juniority. I was frustrated by the lack of career progression and I blamed both the airlines and ALPA for the loss of what should have been an epic career. When the opportunity arose to fly corporate for a very large and perennially profitably company, I jumped at the chance and, to be completely honest, there were some really amazing benefits to doing so. There are benefits in corporate that airline negotiators couldn't even imagine. From the moment I interviewed the organization sold itself to me by treating me the way we all believe pilots should be treated. They provided space positive airfare, hotel accommodations, and all meals during the interview and then even gave us spending cash so that nothing was out of pocket during the 3 day interview process. When I was hired they provided relocation along with cash for expenses. Really. They flew my wife to the new home and gave her an all expenses paid week long trip during which they hooked her up with a real estate agent and introduced her to company recruiters in case she needed a job too. They sold themselves and did it in world class style.
When it is good, it's fantastic... amazing.. astonishing! I once called it the best kept secret in aviation. When I started the job was essentially 6am to 6pm, Monday through Friday. I was here six months before I flew my first overnight. Today I do 2 or 3 overnights per week, 3 weeks a month (4th week is typically off). The pay is on par with most major airlines (as long as we remove the very senior Captains and the FedEx, UPS type of payscales from the metric). There is plenty of time off, although you really don't get to pick when it happens. There are opportunities to learn new skills and try your hand at a variety of jobs or, when you don't want to do those things, just to fly. You will see amazing parts of the country and the world that you typically wouldn't see as an airline pilot. And yet you'll still have your fill of places like LAX, SFO, ORD. Working on the big holidays is extremely rare because the people you are carrying want to be home too. You don't fly so much that you get sick of it (only around 300 hours per year) and every day is a new challenge. The equipment is generally second to none and is lovingly cared for. I don't remember the last time I flew an airplane that had a single item deferred. All of that makes up the Golden Handcuffs which would make leaving difficult even for the best of airline jobs.
When it's bad... it is heart wrenchingly bad. There are times when you spend a week in a hotel in an industrial park in Mexico ... staring at the walls, or watching TV in Spanish. I've said that flying for a living is a career for people who don't value their time. But what really gets to me from time to time is that corporate is personal. You have a personal relationship with your management, with your colleagues, and sometimes even with your passengers. That can be good and bad. Nobody gets along with everybody all of the time. Sometimes you fly with someone who doesn't operate the way you would like them to, and there's really no mechanism to remove them from the trip. There is no professional standards to go to. Sometimes "standardization" is viewed as a four letter word and people follow the rules to varying degrees. But the day that when you really have to question why you chose this path is when layoffs occur. They don't go in reverse seniority order as at the airlines, and there is no recall. People are plucked seemingly at random from the group, given a severance package, and sent on their way. It's personal. You knew these people, their families, their children. They aren't just a number. Now, this doesn't sound bad when you're young and able to recover, but the older you get the prospect of competing for another job with guys half your age seems daunting. And without the ability to jumpseat or nonrev ... job hunting itself can be an expensive challenge. The shadow of another layoff always seems just over the horizon and there is no way to know who would be chosen next. You do the best job that you can. You hope that you don't rub someone the wrong way. And you pray that you can make it another 20... 25 years without falling victim. And then some auto executives go in front of congress to ask for money and, when confronted about the use of their corporate aircraft, fail to defend and justify the use of the aircraft as a tool ro capture the efficiency of traveling employees. Suddenly everyone is worried... If there is one thing that has caused me (on and off over the last few years) to reconsider the airlines -- it's that. It is wishing that I had the security of a seniority number so that I knew exactly and without question where I stood.
Yes, when I see a 737 fly overhead, I recall how much I enjoyed flying that airplane and wearing that uniform. And it breaks my heart a little bit when I see people on this very message board competing to interview and get hired by the very same airline that I essentially "quit" (by not accepting recall). I can't help but succumb to jealousy when I hear my former friends and colleagues talk about the number of retirements and upgrades that will occur over the next few years. Or when I see my former classmates suddenly able to hold widebody international slots (albeit at copilots and still earning a fraction of what I do). I am jealous. Inside I am still that little boy who wanted nothing more than to be an airline pilot. I miss the uniform, the bidding, the big, comfortable, airplanes, the terminals (except for TSA of course). I miss the world-class professionalism and standardization. I miss the short overnights -- hey, I don't go to work to stare at hotel walls. I want to go to work, work hard, and go home! I miss being able to non-rev. I am saddened that my son may never be able to come with me on a trip and see his Dad at work the way I did with my Dad years ago. I miss flying with someone new on every trip. And I miss being able to bid "avoid" if there is someone who I don't get along with. I miss having someone else to do the flight planning (especially international!) and I miss having someone else to arrange hotels and transportation (though I would miss the points!) I miss having a chief pilot who had no idea who I was.
But most of all I miss that seniority number... knowing where I stand and that no matter what, that number would be mine to live and die by.
Over the course of my career I have had the privilege of flying for a variety of operators, from Part 135 night freight, to Part 135 scheduled passenger turboprop, to a variety of part 121 commuters, nationals, and majors. For the last almost 8 years I have been flying Part 91 for a Fortune 500 company. Based on that experience, when asked the question regarding whether or not airline flying is still appealing I can honestly say - It depends on the day.
That's probably not what you wanted to hear. When I was a kid I was born and bred airline. It's all I ever wanted to be and all I wanted to do. When I finally made it to the big leagues flying the very same DC9s and 737s that I used to cut school and ride my bike to the end of the runway to watch... it pretty much defined me. I loved every minute of it. I left the airlines out of desperation. Furlough, after furlough, after furlough was resulting in chronic juniority. I was frustrated by the lack of career progression and I blamed both the airlines and ALPA for the loss of what should have been an epic career. When the opportunity arose to fly corporate for a very large and perennially profitably company, I jumped at the chance and, to be completely honest, there were some really amazing benefits to doing so. There are benefits in corporate that airline negotiators couldn't even imagine. From the moment I interviewed the organization sold itself to me by treating me the way we all believe pilots should be treated. They provided space positive airfare, hotel accommodations, and all meals during the interview and then even gave us spending cash so that nothing was out of pocket during the 3 day interview process. When I was hired they provided relocation along with cash for expenses. Really. They flew my wife to the new home and gave her an all expenses paid week long trip during which they hooked her up with a real estate agent and introduced her to company recruiters in case she needed a job too. They sold themselves and did it in world class style.
When it is good, it's fantastic... amazing.. astonishing! I once called it the best kept secret in aviation. When I started the job was essentially 6am to 6pm, Monday through Friday. I was here six months before I flew my first overnight. Today I do 2 or 3 overnights per week, 3 weeks a month (4th week is typically off). The pay is on par with most major airlines (as long as we remove the very senior Captains and the FedEx, UPS type of payscales from the metric). There is plenty of time off, although you really don't get to pick when it happens. There are opportunities to learn new skills and try your hand at a variety of jobs or, when you don't want to do those things, just to fly. You will see amazing parts of the country and the world that you typically wouldn't see as an airline pilot. And yet you'll still have your fill of places like LAX, SFO, ORD. Working on the big holidays is extremely rare because the people you are carrying want to be home too. You don't fly so much that you get sick of it (only around 300 hours per year) and every day is a new challenge. The equipment is generally second to none and is lovingly cared for. I don't remember the last time I flew an airplane that had a single item deferred. All of that makes up the Golden Handcuffs which would make leaving difficult even for the best of airline jobs.
When it's bad... it is heart wrenchingly bad. There are times when you spend a week in a hotel in an industrial park in Mexico ... staring at the walls, or watching TV in Spanish. I've said that flying for a living is a career for people who don't value their time. But what really gets to me from time to time is that corporate is personal. You have a personal relationship with your management, with your colleagues, and sometimes even with your passengers. That can be good and bad. Nobody gets along with everybody all of the time. Sometimes you fly with someone who doesn't operate the way you would like them to, and there's really no mechanism to remove them from the trip. There is no professional standards to go to. Sometimes "standardization" is viewed as a four letter word and people follow the rules to varying degrees. But the day that when you really have to question why you chose this path is when layoffs occur. They don't go in reverse seniority order as at the airlines, and there is no recall. People are plucked seemingly at random from the group, given a severance package, and sent on their way. It's personal. You knew these people, their families, their children. They aren't just a number. Now, this doesn't sound bad when you're young and able to recover, but the older you get the prospect of competing for another job with guys half your age seems daunting. And without the ability to jumpseat or nonrev ... job hunting itself can be an expensive challenge. The shadow of another layoff always seems just over the horizon and there is no way to know who would be chosen next. You do the best job that you can. You hope that you don't rub someone the wrong way. And you pray that you can make it another 20... 25 years without falling victim. And then some auto executives go in front of congress to ask for money and, when confronted about the use of their corporate aircraft, fail to defend and justify the use of the aircraft as a tool ro capture the efficiency of traveling employees. Suddenly everyone is worried... If there is one thing that has caused me (on and off over the last few years) to reconsider the airlines -- it's that. It is wishing that I had the security of a seniority number so that I knew exactly and without question where I stood.
Yes, when I see a 737 fly overhead, I recall how much I enjoyed flying that airplane and wearing that uniform. And it breaks my heart a little bit when I see people on this very message board competing to interview and get hired by the very same airline that I essentially "quit" (by not accepting recall). I can't help but succumb to jealousy when I hear my former friends and colleagues talk about the number of retirements and upgrades that will occur over the next few years. Or when I see my former classmates suddenly able to hold widebody international slots (albeit at copilots and still earning a fraction of what I do). I am jealous. Inside I am still that little boy who wanted nothing more than to be an airline pilot. I miss the uniform, the bidding, the big, comfortable, airplanes, the terminals (except for TSA of course). I miss the world-class professionalism and standardization. I miss the short overnights -- hey, I don't go to work to stare at hotel walls. I want to go to work, work hard, and go home! I miss being able to non-rev. I am saddened that my son may never be able to come with me on a trip and see his Dad at work the way I did with my Dad years ago. I miss flying with someone new on every trip. And I miss being able to bid "avoid" if there is someone who I don't get along with. I miss having someone else to do the flight planning (especially international!) and I miss having someone else to arrange hotels and transportation (though I would miss the points!) I miss having a chief pilot who had no idea who I was.
But most of all I miss that seniority number... knowing where I stand and that no matter what, that number would be mine to live and die by.
Hootie
Old Skool
Airlines are better if the company you work for doesn't go under. From what I've seen with friends so far is that corporate is the middle part of the spectrum. I've had buddies have gigs not work out or they got fed up or laid off, but if you have expereience they usually can get something equal to what they were doing. If you are the top 10% at Eastern when they close the doors what do you do? If there was a national seniority system airlines would totally be the place to go. So far I have seen my friends in charter and corporate make WAY more money while working less. Basically its a crapshoot.
spoolinup22
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I don't want to be a CFI my entire life, but I'm very happy where I'm at now.
CzechAirman
Well-Known Member
I'm glad I don't work for an "airline". I work for a global logistics company that is perpetually profitable and successful. Your dreams of flying widebodies to exotic locales, having a great QOL while Captains make $300,000.00+ are real here. While we are not hiring at the moment, our entry level aircraft is the 747-400 and current second year pay is in excess of $150,000.00. So, while the passenger carriers futures look bleak, there are a few non-pax carriers where the dreams that got you interested in flying in the first place, can still come true.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Interesting... The majority of the people that are knocking the airlines in this thread have no airline experience.
When I was a corporate pilot, I was quick to tell anyone who asked - "The airlines suck, I'll never do that!". I said the same thing when I was a charter pilot too, of course. Well, things change in your life and I've been working for a West Coast regional airline for close to a year now. There are some things I don't like about it, but overall I really enjoy the airline world. The flying is interesting (more so than corporate, by a long shot), I feel far more secure with my job, I enjoy the variety of crews, and it's so nice to have hard days off for once! Life as a line holder is pretty sweet, particularly when you have enough seniority to basically bid for the schedules you want.
I look at it like this... The best job in the world is some corporate job, and the worst pilot job in the world is some corporate job. An airline job might not be that best job in the world, but it's pretty decent. Quite a bit of time off, decent money (eventually), you can live where you want, and you and your family have the ability to travel the world in first class.
When I was a corporate pilot, I was quick to tell anyone who asked - "The airlines suck, I'll never do that!". I said the same thing when I was a charter pilot too, of course. Well, things change in your life and I've been working for a West Coast regional airline for close to a year now. There are some things I don't like about it, but overall I really enjoy the airline world. The flying is interesting (more so than corporate, by a long shot), I feel far more secure with my job, I enjoy the variety of crews, and it's so nice to have hard days off for once! Life as a line holder is pretty sweet, particularly when you have enough seniority to basically bid for the schedules you want.
I look at it like this... The best job in the world is some corporate job, and the worst pilot job in the world is some corporate job. An airline job might not be that best job in the world, but it's pretty decent. Quite a bit of time off, decent money (eventually), you can live where you want, and you and your family have the ability to travel the world in first class.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Please, everybody ... stay interested in the airlines for a little longer. I've only got about 400TT/50ME, and I don't want the competition for all the non-121 jobs when I get a few hundred (or, realistically, a few thousand) more hours! ;>
To the main question, though. For my part, I've never wanted to fly for the airlines*.
For most of my life, my sights have been on aerial application, leading to a career in tankers ... but seeing as it's a very small (and shrinking) industry and I know nobody on the inside, I don't know if I'll ever be able to get a seat. (And I don't mean a SEAT! ... though I'd consider it.)
My target is currently flying floats in south east Alaska, where I know a couple of people... but I've got plenty of hours to think about it, as yet. Well, as long as everyone doesn't simultaneously decide that the airlines aren't for them. ;>
Oh well ... back to studying for my CFI.
-Fox
* -(There is entirely one "carrier" I'd want to fly for: Cape Air. By that, I mean the 135 402 ops. Probably just because I don't know any better, but I've got a lot of respect for their business and operations, and I would love to someday be based out of HYA... lots of friends on the cape.)
To the main question, though. For my part, I've never wanted to fly for the airlines*.
For most of my life, my sights have been on aerial application, leading to a career in tankers ... but seeing as it's a very small (and shrinking) industry and I know nobody on the inside, I don't know if I'll ever be able to get a seat. (And I don't mean a SEAT! ... though I'd consider it.)
My target is currently flying floats in south east Alaska, where I know a couple of people... but I've got plenty of hours to think about it, as yet. Well, as long as everyone doesn't simultaneously decide that the airlines aren't for them. ;>
Oh well ... back to studying for my CFI.
-Fox
* -(There is entirely one "carrier" I'd want to fly for: Cape Air. By that, I mean the 135 402 ops. Probably just because I don't know any better, but I've got a lot of respect for their business and operations, and I would love to someday be based out of HYA... lots of friends on the cape.)
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Yeah, very nice. I agree with the layoff part too (even though I work outside of aviation) - that's a horrible thing to go through - even when you're one of the survivors. I think that scene in Up in the Air when he walks into the mostly empty office was a perfect rendition.
cmhumphr
Well-Known Member
I've only been in the airlines going on 7 months now. Needless to say, that is not a long time compared to other pilots on this website, but it is long enough to get comfortable and figure out is this really what I want to do. I like it a lot at my airline, I come to work fly my butt off, have a good time on overnights, and then come home. Could things be better? Maybe they could, but it doesn't make sense to just complain about it everyday. If you don't like the airlines, hey it's not for everybody. Go fly cargo or corporate, or as most have done completely change careers. Keep in mind I don't have a wife and kids, so my opinion may be slightly biased versus someone that does.
