Logging PIC during instrument training (at UND).

thevideographer

thevideographer

Well-Known Member
Yes, another one of "these" questions. Legally I can log PIC because I am rated for the aircraft and the sole manipulator of the controls. I couldn't find the source for this, but UND policies say that when an instructor is onboard the instructor is PIC, and UND will automatically log the flight as instruction received in AIMS. Could this cause a problem down the line if I log time as PIC and it shows up as isntruction received in the computer? Is there a compelling reason to log it one way or another?
 
It's both PIC and duel received (and SI). Log it in your logbook like that, they can do whatever they want.
 
Records wont flag it as long as the dual requirements are met. That being said, I'm not sure if airlines will allow you to count it towards PIC for hiring purposes, though it can be used to meet FAA requirements for certs/ratings, and lowering insurance if thats what you're wanting to do.
 
I have this discussion with my commercial/instrument students as part of our first briefing. I lean more towards the side of logging it--it's legal, and there's far less of an issue not including it for a certain airline application than magically having your PIC time quadruple when it's time to sign up for non-owned aircraft insurance.
 
As others said it can be logged as PIC. It also can be included for airline hiring too. There is no reason it should not be included. The regulations for logging flight time as PIC is very clear as is the reg for acting as PIC its two seperate things. You could be a private pilot doing IR training with a CFII and log PIC while in actual IMC. It doesn't matter what rating or training your doing if your with a CFI you will never be the acting PIC during dual instruction. But once rated for the aircraft you can then log PIC for dual flights. Let UND do what they with their records its your logbook and you would be doing the right thing.

Just this past summer I sat in on CFI class at 141 school on the day they were talking about PIC. They were passing around that it sucked that they could not log PIC while doing their complex endorsement during commercial training. Well lets just say after reading the regulation to them like first graders for 20 times and a conference call to the FSDO I finally was able to get them to understand that although they couldn't act as PIC until the endorsement they could log PIC all day long while getting dual instruction.
 
Rotor2Wing said:
It doesn't matter what rating or training your doing if your with a CFI you will never be the acting PIC during dual instruction.
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What would make you think this? A CFI is not required to ACT PIC, unless for some reason the student is unable to. If the student is acting PIC, the CFI could be out of currency or not have a medical, or both. Student has to act pic then.

61.23 5(b). There is a Chief Counsel opinion on that as well. The CFI logs PIC on the basis of giving instruction. Acting PIC doesn't entitle me to LOG anything.

Everything else you said is dead on correct through.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
What would make you think this? A CFI is not required to ACT PIC, unless for some reason the student is unable to. If the student is acting PIC, the CFI could be out of currency or not have a medical, or both. Student has to act pic then.

61.23 5(b). There is a Chief Counsel opinion on that as well. The CFI logs PIC on the basis of giving instruction. Acting PIC doesn't entitle me to LOG anything.

Everything else you said is dead on correct through.
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I guess the best way for me to say what I was getting at is: If a student and CFI take off on a dual instruction flight when something gets broke bad from say a bad landing. Who's going to be taking the blame for the incident? More than likely the CFI.

As to the CFI not being able to act as PIC due to medical or currency. Can a CFI in that situation even give dual instruction and stay legal? I ask because I do not know without looking it up.
 
Rotor2Wing said:
I guess the best way for me to say what I was getting at is: If a student and CFI take off on a dual instruction flight when something gets broke bad from say a bad landing. Who's going to be taking the blame for the incident? More than likely the CFI.

As to the CFI not being able to act as PIC due to medical or currency. Can a CFI in that situation even give dual instruction and stay legal? I ask because I do not know without looking it up.
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Yes, you can give instruction legally without a medical, or currency, so long as someone else can act PIC.

Who gets the blame if something bad happens? Both pilots, probably.
 
As far as "acting" as PIC, I believe Rotor2Wing is correct in the sense of what is UND's policy. Somebody has to be PIC before the flight starts and I suspect (but do not know for a fact) that UND would designate their CFIs as PIC during any dual flight. What happens outside of UND's environment is another matter and dual instruction can certainly be received from a CFI who is not acting as PIC. A good example is the CFI who does not have a medical, but can give instruction to pilots who are legal to act as PIC.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Who gets the blame if something bad happens? Both pilots, probably.
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Blame from WHOM is the operative word. Blame from the school, the FAA, the NTSB, or the courts. If the question is who gets the blame in court, the answer depends on who has deep pockets because those are the prople and corporations the lawyers will go for.
 
Houston said:
As far as "acting" as PIC, I believe Rotor2Wing is correct in the sense of what is UND's policy. Somebody has to be PIC before the flight starts and I suspect (but do not know for a fact) that UND would designate their CFIs as PIC during any dual flight. What happens outside of UND's environment is another matter and dual instruction can certainly be received from a CFI who is not acting as PIC. A good example is the CFI who does not have a medical, but can give instruction to pilots who are legal to act as PIC.
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It isn't terribly relevant through who acts as PIC, as the student can log the time as PIC anyway as sole manipulator. In my case, that would amount to about 100 hours PIC, which my insurance company did count, and which I did need a few years ago. So either way, it is worth keeping track of.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
It isn't terribly relevant through who acts as PIC, as the student can log the time as PIC anyway as sole manipulator. In my case, that would amount to about 100 hours PIC, which my insurance company did count, and which I did need a few years ago. So either way, it is worth keeping track of.
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I agree completely and I don't believe I wrote anything contrary to that. It DOES matter who is acting as PIC, but not in the sense of what can be logged in your logbook.

Oh, one thing I intended to mention and forgot. You do need to get the instructor's endorsement in your logbook. If they are using some sort of logging system that is unique to UND and signing those records, you need to get the CFI to also sign your logbook.
 
Houston said:
Oh, one thing I intended to mention and forgot. You do need to get the instructor's endorsement in your logbook. If they are using some sort of logging system that is unique to UND and signing those records, you need to get the CFI to also sign your logbook.
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Wouldn't the CFI have to sign the logbook in order to meet the dual requirements for the instrument rating? It doesn't matter, since UND does keep those records online, but in most places it seems like the signatures would be required.
 
thevideographer said:
Wouldn't the CFI have to sign the logbook in order to meet the dual requirements for the instrument rating? It doesn't matter, since UND does keep those records online, but in most places it seems like the signatures would be required.
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As far as this CFI knows, I need to sign a student's logbook for all dual given. Doesn't matter what other records are kept. Pretty sure the FAA has weighed in on that before.
 
For the record, it is UND's policy that the CFI must be the acting PIC on the flight. There is, however, no policy that states a student cannot log PIC. On most airline applications, you will only be able to list time as acting PIC (the math for your total time will not come out correctly if you put both dual given and PIC for one flight).
 
drunkenbeagle said:
As far as this CFI knows, I need to sign a student's logbook for all dual given. Doesn't matter what other records are kept. Pretty sure the FAA has weighed in on that before.
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Here is a quote from the old Frequently Asked Questions:

QUESTION: A person is receiving training for a U.S. Commercial Pilot and Instrument Rating. The person holds a Canadian Commercial Pilot Certificate – ASEL and AMEL, and Instrument-Airplane Rating. The person has received a Restricted U.S. private pilot certificate, ASEL and AMEL, Instrument Airplane (passed the instrument foreign knowledge test) that was issued in accordance with § 61.75 (based on her Canadian pilot certificate). The person stated that the examiner is denying her to take the practical tests because he said he cannot count her previous flight training received in Canada from a Canadian flight instructor [§ 61.41(a)(2)] because the individual training sessions were not signed off individually by the instructor. She stated her logbook and the way they do it in Canada at the school she attended to earn her Canadian Commercial Pilot Certificate and Instrument Rating was that she would fill in the contents and times of each training session, and then the school's chief instructor would make one single signature endorsement on each page of her logbook that essentially states that he the chief instructor is certifying the times and contents of the training are correct.
The person stated the examiner who is denying her to take the practical tests told her each entry must be signed by the flight instructor. I assume this examiner is reading § 61.51(h)(2) and understanding that to specifically state that the training must be individually signed off for each lesson.
Does each individual flight training session have to be signed off individually by the instructor or can one signature from the instructor serve as a “blanket” signature for all the flight training sessions?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(b) nor (h)(2); Neither § 61.51(b) nor (h)(2) require that each training session be signed off individually by the instructor. I agree that may be the normal and probably preferred method, but it is not the only method for “. . . Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor . . .” [i.e., § 61.51(h)(2)]. It is possible and I've seen it both ways, that the instructor just makes one blanket signature for the entire page or the instructor can make individual signatures to log the flight training given. And I've seen it where the instructor makes one blanket signature on the last page of the student's training jacket that certifies the flight training given. Either way, the rules are not specific on addressing this issue. Unless there is something more that I'm not being told in the question to suspect the flight training time may not be legitimate, I would not prevent the person from qualifying for the practical test merely because each flight training session was not individually signed off by the instructor. As I previously stated, neither § 61.51(b) nor (h)(2) require the training sessions to be individually signed off by the instructor.
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....... and please, before anyone says "but they are no longer official" ...... yes, I'm well aware of that, but they were well researched by the FAA and worked quite well at answering questions ....... the logic behind them didn't change, ......

So, in a case like UND, the school could for example have the training recorded electronically and then have some periodic signing. I do know of 142 schools that will provide the student with a training record and graduation certificate that are computer generated but will only sign a logbook if requested.

Personally, I want ink on paper for every flight, but I'm kind of old fashioned. I do not know the spectrum of other methods that might be acceptable, but it does seem that other methods are possible.
 
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