Teaching private in a plane that won't stall

  • Thread starter Thread starter Roger, Roger
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Just talked to a few DPE's about this topic. Just brief this particular situation prior to the flight and you will be fine. They just want to see that the student recognizes the indications of stalls and knows the proper recovery method. The private pts wants recovery after stall occurs, commercial pts as the stall occurs, atp at first indication of stall. The DPE's I talk to think this is backwards to have a private with 50 hours recovering after the break and the atp candidate lowering the nose as the stall warning buzzes a little. I can tell you that most DPE's will not want you diving the airplane down to get enough speed etc.
 
Krieger said:
I'd say your not producing enough lift to maintain altitude...
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Which is all any stall is.

When you stall a wing, even with nearly total flow seperation, there is still lift present. You simply no longer have the lift required to maintain what you previously were doing.

A stall is not defined by the "break" there does not need to be a buffet, and because the airplane has now departed from controlled flight. The pts does not care what the pitch attitude looks like when it stalls, and honestly, any real examiner should know that even without a "break" the airplane is stalled.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Which is all any stall is.

When you stall a wing, even with nearly total flow seperation, there is still lift present. You simply no longer have the lift required to maintain what you previously were doing.

A stall is not defined by the "break" there does not need to be a buffet, and because the airplane has now departed from controlled flight. The pts does not care what the pitch attitude looks like when it stalls, and honestly, any real examiner should know that even without a "break" the airplane is stalled.
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obviously I wasn't watching smoke over the top of the wing, but I'd bet a case of your favorite beer that the plane was not stalled. By the feel of it it was still definitely flying. I'm not new at this game and like to think I know the difference between a power off, low speed descent and a stall.
 
Roger said:
obviously I wasn't watching smoke over the top of the wing, but I'd bet a case of your favorite beer that the plane was not stalled. By the feel of it it was still definitely flying. I'm not new at this game and like to think I know the difference between a power off, low speed descent and a stall.
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What is the defenition of an aerodynamic stall? I'll post the follow up to your answer right now, what is the definition of critical angle of attack?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
Roger said:
No. Not necessarily.
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From WIKI (because its the easiest thing to look up for now. I can find a more reliable source if you wish)

Formal definition of a stall:
A stall is a condition in aerodynamics and aviation where the angle of attack increases beyond a certain point such that the lift begins to decrease. The angle at which this occurs is called the critical angle of attack. This critical angle is dependent upon the profile of the wing, its planform, its aspect ratio, and other factors, but is typically in the range of 8 to 20 degrees relative to the incoming wind for most subsonic airfoils. The critical angle of attack is the angle of attack on the lift coefficient versus angle-of-attack curve at which the maximum lift coefficient occurs.

A fixed-wing aircraft during a stall may experience buffeting or a change in attitude.
 
Roger said:
I'll have to look, but most of the stops on the aircraft seem to be non-adjustable... Like on a cub, they are a welded steel bracket. Don't know off the top of my head about the elevator though, I'll have to pop my head into the tail and see.
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How does the elevator trim work on a Pacer? If it's like a Cub, then theres a jackscrew that changes the angle in incidence of the horizontal stab. Maybe the trim is out of rig? Where do you typically have the elevator trim set when you're practicing stalls? This type of trim system has a much bigger affect over how the horizontal stab flies. Much more than say a servo, anti-servo or regular trim tab.
 
The trim is straight cub parts. We tried stalling it with full up trim, no noticeable difference.
 
Can you make a full stall during the landing flare? What's the DA you typically use to practice stalls?
 
Roger have you tried to accelerate stall it? Or stall in the turn, or cross control it a whole hell of a lot? I'm sure that there's a way to do it, do you simply run out of elevator to pull the nose up that far on the back side of the power curve? Have you tried adjusting the CG to a different position? I dunno. How's it going by the way buddy?
 
Nihon_Ni said:
Can you make a full stall during the landing flare? What's the DA you typically use to practice stalls?
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I wouldn't say a full stall landing, but no problems keeping the nose up on landing and making it "stick". DA from 1500-3500.
 
moxiepilot said:
I know I'm late on this, but upon first reading of the thread I was thinking the same as fly unity. By definition if you are unable to maintain altitude you indeed are in a stall.

Sorry Roger, you'reincorrect here.
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That's absurd thinking. That would imply that on final approach (idle power, unable to maintain altitude) you are stalled. A stall occurs when, and only when, airflow over the wing separates.
 
If the examiner gives you the correct answer, he will tell you a different airplane will be needed to demonstrate stalls. The applicant has to provide an aircraft that is capable of demonstrating each task in the PTS.
 
Roger said:
A stall occurs when, and only when, airflow over the wing separates.
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A stall occurs when the smooth airflow over the airplane’s wing is disrupted, and the lift degenerates rapidly. This is caused when the wing exceeds its critical angle of attack. This can occur at any airspeed, in any attitude, with any power setting.
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FAA-H-8083-3A Airplane Flying Handbook, Chapter 4
 
I agree with the others who have suggested your plane may be out of rig. As long as you're within CG limits you should be able to produce a stall. If you add some weight to the cargo area and find that you can produce typical stalls, then the elevator rigging would be suspect.
 
Roger said:
The trim is straight cub parts. We tried stalling it with full up trim, no noticeable difference.
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Trim hands off for a fast cruise or whatever 2500RPM will get you. Then set up for the stall. Don't re-trim from cruise, and smoothly transition to the landing attitude & keep pulling until you hit the stop.

Keep trying this with a little more nose-down trim each time.

Here's some stuff I dug up...

PA22 Rigging Procedure
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
Trim hands off for a fast cruise or whatever 2500RPM will get you. Then set up for the stall. Don't re-trim from cruise, and smoothly transition to the landing attitude & keep pulling until you hit the stop.

Keep trying this with a little more nose-down trim each time.

Here's some stuff I dug up...

PA22 Rigging Procedure
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So nose DOWN trim on a cub type trim system will help it stall? Huh. Wouldn't have thought that. A quick google search reveals that this is pretty typical TriPacer stall behavior.
 
Did I misunderstand or are some people saying that a power-off descent at best glide speed is a stall because the airplane is descending and you can no longer maintain altitude?
 
Roger, Roger, were you ever able to do a power on stall in the twinstar? i never really could on either my private or commercial.... I just said "....and recover" and went full power after a few seconds of nothing really happening.
 
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