When to do the procedure turn?

Chief Captain

Chief Captain

Well-Known Member
Now I was taught that unless very specific conditions are met, a procedure turn is required if it's depicted.

Take a look at this ILS approach at KTNT.

Obviously when approaching from the west without ATC, you do the PT. But if approaching from DEEDS, I'd just shoot the approach from MONRY. What do you guys say?
 
You're doing the procedure turn. DEEDS is just a feeder route. It doesn't say "NoPT"

You could ask for vectors to final or a straight in approach to make it legal if you really don't want to do the PT.
 
necoflyer said:
You're doing the procedure turn. DEEDS is just a feeder route. It doesn't say "NoPT"

You could ask for vectors to final or a straight in approach to make it legal if you really don't want to do the PT.
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:yeahthat:
 
I'm assuming a non-radar scenario. You're right, DEEDS doesn't say "no PT", but I'd argue that doing the PT from DEEDS would be MUCH harder than just starting the approach. To go outbound on the LOC from DEEDS would put you well south of the LOC and on the un-protected side of the depicted hold.

Approaching from DEEDS, how would you do the reversal?
 
TERPS doesnt care what you would argue. If it dont say NoPT, ATC isnt vectoring you for the straight in, and theres a procedure turn charted, ya fly outbound and do the procedure turn!
 
Chief Captain said:
I'm assuming a non-radar scenario. You're right, DEEDS doesn't say "no PT", but I'd argue that doing the PT from DEEDS would be MUCH harder than just starting the approach. To go outbound on the LOC from DEEDS would put you well south of the LOC and on the un-protected side of the depicted hold.

Approaching from DEEDS, how would you do the reversal?
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I would either:

a) once passing MONRY, right turn to a heading of 320*, start time for 1 min. when crossing localizer, do the PT.

or

b) right turn to intercept the localizer, track outbound on the localizer for 1 min., then fly a tear drop reversal, like you would use to enter a hold.
 
SIUav8er said:
TERPS doesnt care what you would argue. If it dont say NoPT, ATC isnt vectoring you for the straight in, and theres a procedure turn charted, ya fly outbound and do the procedure turn!
Click to expand...

No.

AIM 5-4-9
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft inbound on the intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold-in-lieu-of-PT is required maneuver when it is depicted on the approach chart, unless cleared by ATC for a straight-in approach. Additionally, the procedure turn or HILOPT is not permited when the symbol "NoPT" is depicted on the initial segment being used, when a RADAR VECTOR to the final approach course is used, or when conducting timed approaches.

So not only are you required to fly the procedure turn when needed, you can not fly when on vectors to final, or timed approaches, unless otherwise cleared to do so.
 
I agree with you, SIU, because that's what I was taught, but it seems to defy the logic of a PT. Have a look at this chart, the VOR31 into KJAX. It states NoPT for arrivals on radials 164 to 178. That makes sense. But what if I was arriving on the 136 radial? How exactly would I reverse course to join the PT? Get to the VOR then turn right to intercept the R-136 outbound?

My understanding is that the PT is used to give the pilot a reasonable angle to intercept the final approach segment. When you're already closely aligned with the final in the 2 examples I gave, isn't the PT a lot of extra maneuvering that doesn't really need to be done?

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the TERPS design criteria here.
 
necoflyer said:
AIM 5-4-9
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft inbound on the intermediate or final approach course.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That's just my problem. When approaching from certain angles, it is not necessary to reverse direction. I was taught that a PT is not authorized under the following circumstances:

Straight in approach
Radar Vectors
DME Arc
NoPT
Hold-in-lieu-of-PT
Timed approaches

Now arriving from DEEDS in example 1, or CRG radial 136 in example 2, I'd need to do the PT according to the above list, however, I don't need to reverse direction. Why doesn't the app plate give you the option of continuing straight in when that is the case?
 
necoflyer said:
No.

AIM 5-4-9
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft inbound on the intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold-in-lieu-of-PT is required maneuver when it is depicted on the approach chart, unless cleared by ATC for a straight-in approach. Additionally, the procedure turn or HILOPT is not permited when the symbol "NoPT" is depicted on the initial segment being used, when a RADAR VECTOR to the final approach course is used, or when conducting timed approaches.

So not only are you required to fly the procedure turn when needed, you can not fly when on vectors to final, or timed approaches, unless otherwise cleared to do so.
Click to expand...

no? thats exactly what i said! (in so many words)
 
Chief Captain said:
I agree with you, SIU, because that's what I was taught, but it seems to defy the logic of a PT. Have a look at this chart, the VOR31 into KJAX. It states NoPT for arrivals on radials 164 to 178. That makes sense. But what if I was arriving on the 136 radial? How exactly would I reverse course to join the PT? Get to the VOR then turn right to intercept the R-136 outbound?

My understanding is that the PT is used to give the pilot a reasonable angle to intercept the final approach segment. When you're already closely aligned with the final in the 2 examples I gave, isn't the PT a lot of extra maneuvering that doesn't really need to be done?

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the TERPS design criteria here.
Click to expand...

The comments state that if you are arriving on V151 and V267 fly direct to the VOR and then get established in the final app crs (7 miles from the VOR to final). If you are arriving on R136 inbound then you are not on one of these airways nor on a published feeder route....since you will be aligned with the final approach course you will not have to do a PT, and will probably be cleared for a "straight in approach" at some point.

Your first example the feeder route intercepts the inbound at the FAF which makes becoming established prior to the FAF impossible. 2nd example VOR is 7 miles from the FAF.
 
Others have said it, but just to add a bit more clarity. The purpose of the procedure turn is to get you established on course AND altitude. While the feeder from DEEDS is at the same altitude it doesn't intercept the final course before the FAF (maltese) it intersects at the FAF. Doing an ILS you would be hard pressed to make the turn and be stabalized on the GS from DEEDS, doing the LOC only it could be difficult to maintain a straight in approach criteria descent rate if you had to fly from DEEDS to the FAF turn inbound then start down to the MDA.

Remember these approaches aren't built just around airplanes flying at 80 knots, which at that speed it would be relatively easy to use the DEEDS route as a NoPT but at 140 knots, not so much. TERPS designs these approaches for terrain and obstacle clearance AND to meet straight in or circling approach descent rates/angles (amongst other things) and that is only guaranteed if we fly the approaches as depicted.

Just fly from DEEDS to the FAF, turn left and get established outbount, make the procedure turn as depicted and fly the approach, enjoy the .2 more flight time.
 
necoflyer said:
You're doing the procedure turn. DEEDS is just a feeder route. It doesn't say "NoPT"

You could ask for vectors to final or a straight in approach to make it legal if you really don't want to do the PT.
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it's Florida; Miami, Florida.

realistically, you're not going to not have ATC vectoring you and realistically the only way you'll do the PT is if you request it
- imo
 
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