Check Ride Failure

Hacker15e said:
I agree with Ryan -- I think you'd have a hard time making an argument that instructing GA flying is representative of the rest of the flying world.

The good news is that airmanship is that fuzzy quality we all gain from our experience and largely transcends the aircraft or type of flying we do. A CFI is going to gain loads of airmanship related to a number of different disciplines from human nature, to social interaction, to other aviation decisionmaking -- all very good stuff. Certainly, there are types of experience and judgment that a pilot is going to gain as a GA CFI that develop him as an airman and make him poised for success in other professional flying environments.

But, let's not get carried away; that airmanship in and of itself isn't the end-all be-all of "experience" that a pilot will gain in those other areas. No more than my experience as a pointy-nosed fast-mover pilot endows me with some kind of omniscient 4G situational awareness that means I can step into any other aircraft at any time and instantly be the ace-of-the-base. Like the CFI, I have operated most of my career in a relatively small portion of the overall aviation pie, and there is a lot to experience outside of that bubble.
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Very good post. I agree with this wholeheartedly.


I've always thought about it a little like this:

Variation of Experience + <nebulous factor relating to how challenging that flying was> x (Total Time) + Amount of Stick and Rudder in that flying + whatever nature v. nurture factor is true = pilot skill.

Airmanship and decision making skills on the other hand are a little different.

Airmanship = ((How Many Times you've nearly pissed yourself) + (How much experience you have))/(how quickly you catch on)
 
HJB said:
This topic has been disgust quit a bit lately. The Doctor example given is completely misused regarding this topic. I have 2 cosines that went thru med school; if i remember correctly they got to take the MCAT as many times as they wanted. They did well in classes, but getting a B in a course didn’t mean it was the end of there career. My brother is an accountant he's taken his CPA test several times. Look up the pass rate on a first time CPA test, and see what you find. I myself have busted three check rides out of 9, but during that time I was a STUDENT. I was never being paid to fly, in fact i was working 2 jobs, flying, and getting my bachelors degree. Now if I was a chief pilot I wouldn’t want to hire someone with a lot of busted check rides, but i would also look at there back ground... Since aviation has been my source of income i have not and will not ever fail a check ride (taken 4 since it has been and never had a problem). Being a 3 year CFI, i can tell you that 90% of check ride failures are due to money issues. When a student keeps running out of money, taking extra flights is not an option..
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Actually, it is a pretty good analogy. My wife is a doctor, so I know what is involved.
Yes, there are written tests... just as there are in aviation. But there are also practical "tests" when you go through residency and if you fail enough of the practical portions of residency you wash out. You are still a doctor- just as you are still a pilot if you continuously fail check rides- but if you wash out of a residency you will have a tough time getting into another one. Not impossible and it does happen, but it's tough.
 
Hacker15e said:
I agree with Ryan -- I think you'd have a hard time making an argument that instructing GA flying is representative of the rest of the flying world.
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Check the Nall Report & FAA statistics and you'll find that in the USA alone, GA acounted for approximately 20 million flight hours in 2009 . Of those 20 million hours, 2.9 million flight hours were for 135 operations. Instructional flights accounted for just over 3.4 million flight hours.
 
Having experienced both the Part 61 and 141 environments, I would have to say that I would rather take a checkride with a DPE any day. The experience requirements to become a DPE are far far greater than the requirements to become a stage check pilot, even though the stage check pilot is giving a checkride to issue the exact same pilot certificate as what a DPE would give. For the most part, DPEs seem to be much more concerned about practical application of skills, while stage check pilots seem to be more interested in rote-level knowledge. Of course, this is just from my experiences...I'm sure there are exceptions, or that I've just seen exceptions for that matter.

I think that stage checks for certificates or ratings should certainly be part of PRIA records, but I also think that the instructors administering those checks should be subject to the same requirements as a DPE to be certified and maintain certification. Another thing, while I'm on my high horse...stage checks should be billed just like FAA checkrides--at a flat rate. I've seen students have 6+ hour oral exams for intermediate stage checks...somehow I think things would be more efficient if the student wasn't paying by the hour for the stage check.
 
All I'm saying is that the big picture should be looked at, not just a couple busted checkrides, especially if that applicant's failures were years ago and has an established a solid track record of success with subsequent rides coupled with a good amount of flight experience with no accidents, incidents, or violations.

I would rather fly with someone who has 2 busted checkrides than someone who has bent airplanes or blatantly violated the regs.
 
FDX8891 said:
All I'm saying is that the big picture should be looked at, not just a couple busted checkrides, especially if that applicant's failures were years ago and has an established a solid track record of success with subsequent rides coupled with a good amount of flight experience with no accidents, incidents, or violations.

I would rather fly with someone who has 2 busted checkrides than someone who has bent airplanes or blatantly violated the regs.
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For the 50th time. OP admitted that he recently also failed his initial ATP ride.
 
Mike H said:
Check the Nall Report & FAA statistics and you'll find that in the USA alone, GA acounted for approximately 20 million flight hours in 2009 . Of those 20 million hours, 2.9 million flight hours were for 135 operations. Instructional flights accounted for just over 3.4 million flight hours.
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What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
 
pwttogfk said:
Having experienced both the Part 61 and 141 environments, I would have to say that I would rather take a checkride with a DPE any day. The experience requirements to become a DPE are far far greater than the requirements to become a stage check pilot, even though the stage check pilot is giving a checkride to issue the exact same pilot certificate as what a DPE would give. For the most part, DPEs seem to be much more concerned about practical application of skills, while stage check pilots seem to be more interested in rote-level knowledge. Of course, this is just from my experiences...I'm sure there are exceptions, or that I've just seen exceptions for that matter.

I think that stage checks for certificates or ratings should certainly be part of PRIA records, but I also think that the instructors administering those checks should be subject to the same requirements as a DPE to be certified and maintain certification. Another thing, while I'm on my high horse...stage checks should be billed just like FAA checkrides--at a flat rate. I've seen students have 6+ hour oral exams for intermediate stage checks...somehow I think things would be more efficient if the student wasn't paying by the hour for the stage check.
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Jesus..I have a hard time making my stage check grounds last an hour. End of course cfi stage checks I can usually go about 1.5 but damn...I don't need to go over every damn technical subject area to know if a student is prepared to move on.
 
ryan1234 said:
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
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Someone made the contention that instructional flying wasn't representatve of the flying world. Fact is that instructional flight hours outnumbered 135 ops by about half a million flight hours in 2009 (the most recent available yearly statistics).
 
Mike H said:
Someone made the contention that instructional flying wasn't representatve of the flying world. Fact is that instructional flight hours outnumbered 135 ops by about half a million flight hours in 2009 (the most recent available yearly statistics).
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...and that still doesn't make it qualitatively representative of the rest of the flying world.
 
Hacker15e said:
...and that still doesn't make it qualitatively representative of the rest of the flying world.
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it does, however, make it more representative of the flying world than Part 135 operations are- by a half million flight hours per year. Not sure how any of this pertains to fail checkrides, though
 
Mike H said:
Not sure how any of this pertains to fail checkrides, though
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Reference posts 29, 30, and 32.

The discussion has to do with the type of experience a GA CFI has, and if that type of experience would offset the negative of failed checkrides when applying to a 121 carrier.
 
Multiple checkride failures do correlate directly with a persons attitude. 1 or 2 busts, fine, but when you hit 3,4,..... that shows that you obviously arn't taking this seriously enough. It tells the world you arn't preparing enough for your rides and signing up for them anyway.

Really, 2 busts is pushing it IMHO. I don't know anybody with 2 busts that I would let fly me around without watching closely. I don't mean to sound holier than thou. Sometimes you get bad examiners. Sometimes you get a bad gust of wind. The fact is, most of the time it was the applicant.

I don't think it is a be all end all situation. Personally, if I were doing the hiring, it would be one thing out of many that I would take into account.
 
I think part of the 'problem' is that we only hear half the story, from the applicant who "was busted" by big bad DPE so-and-so. A few weeks ago I talked to a guy who busted a checkride for exceeding the flap limitation by "one or two knots", after talking to the DE it was 30 knots and had forgot to do a landing checklist and turn the on the xpndr and pumps on that takeoff.
 
crfguy51 said:
I think part of the 'problem' is that we only hear half the story, from the applicant who "was busted" by big bad DPE so-and-so. A few weeks ago I talked to a guy who busted a checkride for exceeding the flap limitation by "one or two knots", after talking to the DE it was 30 knots and had forgot to do a landing checklist and turn the on the xpndr and pumps on that takeoff.
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And thats the DPEs story. There is always three sides to every story
 
I'd wager the DE's story is closer to the third side. Not saying they're perfect, but every primary bust story I've heard has these little details that seem to slip out eventually and things start to make sense....things that maybe the applicant at their relative skill level don't even realize they're doing.
 
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