A150K
Well-Known Member
I wonder if we have any Gojetters on here? (Yes, I went there...)
Disclaimer: I do not like Go Jets, so don't taze me bros.
Fly for Great Lakes?
- Thread starter Winglet
- Start date
I wonder if we have any Gojetters on here? (Yes, I went there...)
Disclaimer: I do not like Go Jets, so don't taze me bros.
BeRich
Very Special Agent
A150K
Well-Known Member
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Nope, do I search and see how this board treats them. Yes the A listers are bad, but after that who gives a damn. You get hired w/ GoJet today who gives a damn. I know for sure if I was a GoJet pilot I wouldn't be posting on here. Who picks what airlines/companies are OK to bash and which ones are not? Seems to depend if those airlines have members on this forum...
A150K
Well-Known Member
I honestly think I would stay out of all aviation forums if I was flying for them (not gonna happen, against my principles, but I wouldn't taze someone for going there either).
BeRich
Very Special Agent
But...It's a big, powerful jettttttttt.
I was talking about the disclaimer part, not the GoJet part
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Unfortunately, that's the way the RLA works. It's really no different than contracts that are 10 years old where I work either. The lost funds are ridiculous. If the pilot group has a goal of a certain dollar amount and work rules, they will have to take the steps necessary, including striking.
Remember, strikes hurt the companies as well. It's a very serious thing. You have to be willing to do it.
I think bagging on Keylime is just as juvenile. Are there issues with Pay For Training? Sure. Beating on people doesn't win them over, a persuasive argument does. And by persuasive argument I sure don't mean "Gawd, you sucks are bringing down the industry and steelin' my moniez" because it's not a fact. You get paid what you negotiate, not what you're worth.
Unfortunately, in recent years, our negotiating capital has been lost due, mainly, to our collective lack of a sac. Pilots don't have that 6 month fund at airlines. I'm sorry, but you don't need a mac and the latest iPhone, you need a way to pay your bills if your 20k/yr dissolves. I saw it over and over again at the regional, and I see it here.
Ok, I've been a lurker here off and on for the last few years and I work at Lakes. I've been watching some of the conversations here about Lakes for awhile now but this thread finally got me off my butt to join and post something. First off, I'd be glad to honestly answer any questions about the place without being a cool aid drinker or giving the views of the most disgruntled worker here. And trust me, my career here has not been as charmed as some others but I've been through the good and the bad in my 6+ years so I feel I can give an opinion that's somewhere in the middle of the road. Which is what most people would probably experience.
Second, in my opinion Polar742 and SteveC are dead on with their posts. I can honestly say that one of the reasons why I have not signed up earlier was because of some of the attitudes towards others on this site. I just felt it wasn't worth signing up to argue about why people go to Lakes or whatever bad regional or company happens to be the target of the day.
I don't really feel about getting into the whole debate about Lakes as I feel that Polar742 and SteveC have pretty much made the points I was going to make but I will say this to JamesD. First, I know exactly who your friend is and I would say that his career path has worked for him but it's not the plan that most here would consider. So take that into consideration that it may not work for you and make sure you really understand what it's like to work here and don't just listen to all the cheery stuff coming from someone who was willing to rent a car on his own dime and drive hundreds of miles through a snow storm while everyone else was stuck in their drive ways because of 30" inches of snow. His views will be a little different that most. Just remember to take in all the viewpoints, find the middle spot and expect that when you come here. Nothing's worse than having some new hire FO who should know (especially in this day and age with the internet) what working at Lakes is about and what you're getting into when you come here then having them complain and moan after 2 months with the company. Also, Lakes is what you make of it. You will be abused at times, underpaid and jr manned but your attitude goes a long way. We've all had those moments and everyone needs to vent which is fine but don't let it get to you so bad that you're permanently disgruntled. Trust me, I've been there and I know how it is and I was able to work myself out of that funk and my life has been so much better because of it. So keep that in mind, knowing what you're getting into, being positive when you can and just trying to make the most of it will make your life here go that much better. Also, I was once told this by a wise friend of mine who used to work here. Lakes will take advantage of you at any chance they can get, but at the same time we're here so you need take advantage of them by getting your type, or two, build some quality time, learning how to become the best pilot you can, make the connections that will get you out of here in the future and just try not to let this place get to you. I would say his advice is golden for anyone who's working for Lakes or any of those "other" companies that everyone likes to bash on.
Also, to those who doubt where Lakers can and will go because the majority of our pilots fly the 1900. We've had pilots who have gone all over the place, mainly because of the connections they made but also because they did have that Turbine PIC. Yes, 1900 time isn't what it used to be but it will still get you a job. We should all know that this industry is all about what connections you have when you're able to check those boxes off so that shouldn't have to say anything about that. But I can tell you that people here do move on to bigger and better. From the most extreme cases (2.5 years here before moving on to FedEx as an MD11 FO), to those who are stuck here for 7+ years. It's all what you make of it. If you feel that 1900 time isn't enough to get you a job at the next place, work on becoming an LCA or get into the training department. Transition over to the Brasilia and get that second type. Get your PIC time then go sit somewhere in the right seat of a jet. There's plenty of ways to do it and there's no one right way. As others have said, there are more paths to your destination than the one that someone else took so pick what works for you and go for it. I also believe that there's a difference between bullying someone into not taking a job somewhere that may work for them and educating them on why that company is where it is. If you do decide to come to a place like Lakes, just remember what you're getting into and do what you can to improve the place when you get here instead of complaining. Plenty of our current Lakers are doing so because they've realized that the old plan of coming here for a few years and leaving isn't the trend of today so they're fighting hard to make it better for those who come here down the road as most of us will not see the rewards of what we are fighting for during our careers at Lakes.
So that's my take on it. Make what you want of it but everyone has their own choices and everyone's situation is different. I came to Lakes and I knew what I was getting into but personally I will not be so quick to condemn or judge others based upon their actions if that's what's best for them.
Second, in my opinion Polar742 and SteveC are dead on with their posts. I can honestly say that one of the reasons why I have not signed up earlier was because of some of the attitudes towards others on this site. I just felt it wasn't worth signing up to argue about why people go to Lakes or whatever bad regional or company happens to be the target of the day.
I don't really feel about getting into the whole debate about Lakes as I feel that Polar742 and SteveC have pretty much made the points I was going to make but I will say this to JamesD. First, I know exactly who your friend is and I would say that his career path has worked for him but it's not the plan that most here would consider. So take that into consideration that it may not work for you and make sure you really understand what it's like to work here and don't just listen to all the cheery stuff coming from someone who was willing to rent a car on his own dime and drive hundreds of miles through a snow storm while everyone else was stuck in their drive ways because of 30" inches of snow. His views will be a little different that most. Just remember to take in all the viewpoints, find the middle spot and expect that when you come here. Nothing's worse than having some new hire FO who should know (especially in this day and age with the internet) what working at Lakes is about and what you're getting into when you come here then having them complain and moan after 2 months with the company. Also, Lakes is what you make of it. You will be abused at times, underpaid and jr manned but your attitude goes a long way. We've all had those moments and everyone needs to vent which is fine but don't let it get to you so bad that you're permanently disgruntled. Trust me, I've been there and I know how it is and I was able to work myself out of that funk and my life has been so much better because of it. So keep that in mind, knowing what you're getting into, being positive when you can and just trying to make the most of it will make your life here go that much better. Also, I was once told this by a wise friend of mine who used to work here. Lakes will take advantage of you at any chance they can get, but at the same time we're here so you need take advantage of them by getting your type, or two, build some quality time, learning how to become the best pilot you can, make the connections that will get you out of here in the future and just try not to let this place get to you. I would say his advice is golden for anyone who's working for Lakes or any of those "other" companies that everyone likes to bash on.
Also, to those who doubt where Lakers can and will go because the majority of our pilots fly the 1900. We've had pilots who have gone all over the place, mainly because of the connections they made but also because they did have that Turbine PIC. Yes, 1900 time isn't what it used to be but it will still get you a job. We should all know that this industry is all about what connections you have when you're able to check those boxes off so that shouldn't have to say anything about that. But I can tell you that people here do move on to bigger and better. From the most extreme cases (2.5 years here before moving on to FedEx as an MD11 FO), to those who are stuck here for 7+ years. It's all what you make of it. If you feel that 1900 time isn't enough to get you a job at the next place, work on becoming an LCA or get into the training department. Transition over to the Brasilia and get that second type. Get your PIC time then go sit somewhere in the right seat of a jet. There's plenty of ways to do it and there's no one right way. As others have said, there are more paths to your destination than the one that someone else took so pick what works for you and go for it. I also believe that there's a difference between bullying someone into not taking a job somewhere that may work for them and educating them on why that company is where it is. If you do decide to come to a place like Lakes, just remember what you're getting into and do what you can to improve the place when you get here instead of complaining. Plenty of our current Lakers are doing so because they've realized that the old plan of coming here for a few years and leaving isn't the trend of today so they're fighting hard to make it better for those who come here down the road as most of us will not see the rewards of what we are fighting for during our careers at Lakes.
So that's my take on it. Make what you want of it but everyone has their own choices and everyone's situation is different. I came to Lakes and I knew what I was getting into but personally I will not be so quick to condemn or judge others based upon their actions if that's what's best for them.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
All three Kalitta companies are highly selective on who they interview and hire. They can afford to be as there are ton of guys still on the street that are highly qualified. Back in my 135 T-prop and piston days I made more than any regional FO's and even some regional captains. The regionals were going down hill when I was there an they still haven't taken their foot off the gas pedal. Even back in my day Great Lakes was Great Mistakes and below Mesa....
Everyone is correct......and the problem is the hypocrisy of aviation as a whole. Everyone hates the low wages of "bottom feeder regional A" or "crappy regional B", but everyone will climb over everyone else to go these places. Management knows this, and thus they hold many of the primo cards. With a large supply of resumes to choose from, there's always someone to replace someone else.
Until all regional pilots collectively strike or stop working, and none replace them, then nothing will be done. But thats fantasyland and isn't possible anyway. Until something crazy like that, the self-licking ice cream cone of regionals will continue. There's not much that can be done about that.
And for those supporting regional 1st year wages under the excuse of "it's an entry level job, with entry level wages;" I understand the concept of entry-level employment. Just not entry level employment where the pay is nowhere commensurate with the qualifications or the amount of responsibility.
There's working entry level, and there's yourself out. But why is it acceptable in one vein, and not others?
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
There is a thin line between guidance and insults. I've noticed a lot of people at Lakes defending their position by coming into a thread where the wages and QOL are being attacked and talking about the positives that came out of their time with the company. These people are usually quickly shot to hell, so they stop trying. I think the issue here is people begin word association with certain airlines, I'm guilty of it myself. The associations aren't always negative, they can be positive. When you first start to read a post about someone giving the scoop on Fed Ex, UPS, or Delta, I'd imagine you're instant reaction is probably positive, or you're expecting the text after to be positive. Now what if you see the word "Skybus"? You probably roll your eyes subconsciously thinking back to what you've heard about them, which was likely mostly negative. What I've noticed with a few airlines is not only negativity, but actual words and ideas that instantly appear in any thread about them. When someone says "Gojet", people immediately go on the defensive thinking "scabs!" and "career-ending". When someone says Great Lakes, instantly the reaction is "Foodstamps!" and "Rapid upgrade trap!". When someone says Keylime, its "Pay for training" and "ZOMGZ look at the accident reports"(there aren't many of them). Pacific Wings, Colgan, Quest Diagnostics, the list goes on, but there are plenty of companies that have an instant bad wrap.
But looking past those initial reactions, where is the truth behind the ugly mask that has been painted for each carrier? Surely, many of these forum-wide opinions seem to have been earned, but that may not be the case for all of them. Gojets, we all know about the A-listers, but what I've seen recently is pretty much all the current 121 guys here, including the big ALPA guys, dismissing guys who recently hired there. With the furloughed United guys over there and the time that's past since its formation, it seems that those actually in the industry have said that, minus the A-listers, it's just another regional now. Despite this, it seems everyone on the forums who isn't 121 is still after Gojets every chance they get. People in the know have said their piece about Lakes, but they too get the knee-jerk reactions. And the only Keylime pilot I know of on these forums has all but left out of frustration of the disrespect he got trying to set things right about our communities perception on his company, and all right after he paid it forward in the spirit of JC. On the other hand, I feel like Fed Ex could cut its wages by 20% tomorrow, and people would say "Well, its still an awesome place to work". Delta could have to suspend a huge chunk of international flying and people will still look at the airline as a global success that they could only dream to work for.
Really, it's like type-casting actors. When you take the dude from Twilight and watch the media say "VAMPIRE VAMPIRE VAMPIRE" a billion times, well, guess what happens? All people will ever see when they look at him is a vampire and he'll never get to play another role. Worst of all, this leads to lost opportunities for networking. Just look at our new Lakes poster. He lurked for years, but didn't feel like "talking to the wall" about his company, so he never bothered to get involved and post. What if he never posted? What if one day down the road he's the CP for a Flight Department with a large fleet of Challengers looking for typed pilots when right here on JC we have furloughed CRJ pilots. He obviously won't look here. Just think about how many people like him have lurked and left, guys once at Gojet, Freedom, Keylime, who may now be in high places where they can make some of our dreams come true.
Just food for thought.
But looking past those initial reactions, where is the truth behind the ugly mask that has been painted for each carrier? Surely, many of these forum-wide opinions seem to have been earned, but that may not be the case for all of them. Gojets, we all know about the A-listers, but what I've seen recently is pretty much all the current 121 guys here, including the big ALPA guys, dismissing guys who recently hired there. With the furloughed United guys over there and the time that's past since its formation, it seems that those actually in the industry have said that, minus the A-listers, it's just another regional now. Despite this, it seems everyone on the forums who isn't 121 is still after Gojets every chance they get. People in the know have said their piece about Lakes, but they too get the knee-jerk reactions. And the only Keylime pilot I know of on these forums has all but left out of frustration of the disrespect he got trying to set things right about our communities perception on his company, and all right after he paid it forward in the spirit of JC. On the other hand, I feel like Fed Ex could cut its wages by 20% tomorrow, and people would say "Well, its still an awesome place to work". Delta could have to suspend a huge chunk of international flying and people will still look at the airline as a global success that they could only dream to work for.
Really, it's like type-casting actors. When you take the dude from Twilight and watch the media say "VAMPIRE VAMPIRE VAMPIRE" a billion times, well, guess what happens? All people will ever see when they look at him is a vampire and he'll never get to play another role. Worst of all, this leads to lost opportunities for networking. Just look at our new Lakes poster. He lurked for years, but didn't feel like "talking to the wall" about his company, so he never bothered to get involved and post. What if he never posted? What if one day down the road he's the CP for a Flight Department with a large fleet of Challengers looking for typed pilots when right here on JC we have furloughed CRJ pilots. He obviously won't look here. Just think about how many people like him have lurked and left, guys once at Gojet, Freedom, Keylime, who may now be in high places where they can make some of our dreams come true.
Just food for thought.
zaza32
Well-Known Member
Phrases I petition be banned from jetcareers: 1. Great Lakes 2. Pacific Wings 3. Quick upgrade. They never turn out good. As for my 2 cents...it's hard to put water into a glass thats already too full so why even bother. People have different standards as to how they want lo live their life and many of us are far too arrogant (or whatever you want to call it) to take advice from others...yes even you reading this. And while even pilots taking jobs like these may have a trickle-down effect on your QOL, and I'm sure it does, it is something far out of our reach of control and unworthy of our stress, berating, etc.
All I'm saying is if you don't like it, change it; if you cant change it, change the way you think about it.
All I'm saying is if you don't like it, change it; if you cant change it, change the way you think about it.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
It depends on whether you can think for yourself and make your own decisions or you just follow along so you don't rock the boat (looking at you). Obviously, getting paid $16/hr. isn't a good financial situation for most people. If he doesn't take the job, there are 100 people behind him. The pilot group as a whole is to blame, not this one guy. Spewing mindless rhetoric just drives a bigger wedge between us as individual pilots and only hurts as a group.
Everyone should know that if you're going to Great Lakes, pay is not your concern so all the doom and gloom about industry meltdown because there are Great Lakes pilots is completely wasted. They are going for the quick upgrade, which they will get faster than any other place, and they will make as much or as little as an FO at the best regionals at least for the first few years. The only difference is between CA pay.
Kalitta, I'm pretty sure looks at the individual first rather than the experience. Int Cargo flying I would imagine requires a different breed.
Blame them for what? And by the way, that one guy IS the pilot group.... If you're going to Great Lakes, you're sacrificing QOL for a quick upgrade. Pay is the same based on years because a Great Lakes CA makes the same or more than an RJ FO. It's the first year that's bad.
pilotbry
Well-Known Member
Very nice post ChasenSFO. When I joined JC it was for ADVICE and networking. It was in the thick of the GoJet debates and I nearly did abandon the forum because it sounded like a bunch of high school kids bickering. Sure, I'd like to know if a particular outfit has unscrupulous mx practices or if the pilots are pushed into wx or whatever as long as it's coming from someone who actually worked there and has some sort of evidence to back it up. What I don't need is someone berating/marginalizing/personally attacking me for asking for advice or taking a job with a company that he/she views as evil for whatever reason. First amendment notwithstanding, I think you are absolutely spot on that this forum is harmed by this type of activity. I am now in the potion of doing the hiring for my company and when I recently decided to post job availability exclusively on JC I got someone bashing my company. I'm not so sure I'll go the same route next time.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
I see in your profile you're the CP for a Mapping company. I looked through the thread and can't believe what how one member was disrespecting you when there are are some of us like myself who would love to do that to build time and for the experience of it, though I'm a year or two away from my commercial. I hope you do chose to come here again as there are plenty of guys who hope for that line of work.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Hear, hear. Everyone makes his own path some way or another. Best of luck to anyone pursuing Lakes. If they can afford it, I'm sure they'll have some great experiences there.
jhugz:
I won't go into detail, but you're missing a lot of "behind the scenes" stuff at each one of those [tuk Polar's jerb!] companies you listed. This is a fluid business; you can't just come to conclusions based on what you read on APC.