Personal Minimums.

TwoTwoLeft said:
What does that have to do with me thinking I'm talking to morons?

I could care less what airplane the client owns. To me its a paycheck. So after I'm done carving their arbitrary personal limitations in stone for them:sarcasm:, my goal is keep them from being "that Cirrus guy".

Hell, I'd rather be flying/teaching in fabric over plastic any day. Just have to go where the money is for the moment.

I had several clients around 2006 looking to buy a new airplane. They were talking with factory reps from Diamond, Cirrus, Colombia & Cessna. I kid you not, every time we spoke with a Cessna rep and informed them that a Cirrus was also a consideration, it was the same response... Accident rate, not spin certified, parachute is a gimmick. It was like the same rehearsed story from deferent reps. They made more of an effort to downplay the Cirrus than to up sell their product to the client's flying needs. Don't get me wrong, Cessna makes great quality aircraft. How many SR22s do you think will hit 50 years old??? I'm not all about Cirrus. Personally, I really don't like them. Lucky for me, some people do so I can work and get paid.
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So much for derailing the thread and taking it outside!
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
I had several clients around 2006 looking to buy a new airplane. They were talking with factory reps from Diamond, Cirrus, Colombia & Cessna. I kid you not, every time we spoke with a Cessna rep and informed them that a Cirrus was also a consideration, it was the same response... Accident rate, not spin certified, parachute is a gimmick.
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dustoff17 said:
So much for derailing the thread and taking it outside!
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I wouldn't say I had several but I've had to sit through the stupid Cirrus song and dance a few times because my student wanted to "buy something fast". I have a number of gripes about the Cirrus reps, as you have gripes about the Cessna reps. You'd better believe they bashed the Cessna product. I hope you will hold the Cirrus reps to the same standard.

As far as the rest of your gripes about the Cessna reps, lets just see, ""Accident rate, not spin certified, parachute is a gimmick."

Cessna is correct, the Cirrus product has an higher accident rate than what has been described as the average, and if your speaking of '06, the rate had just spiked back up. Cessna is trying to sell planes, there's no use hiding simply researchable facts when they help your pitch.

A Cessna rep critiquing spin cert is embarrassing for them, especially after the "Ground Catcher" accidents, but it looked like you were talking about back in '06. MY favorite Cessna sales pitch is from many years ago when they first got the tri-cycle gear going and told people (even on posters), "you can just drive the airplane into the sky!". Hehe. I don't know how Cirrus is any cleaner a sales group than Cessna is, maybe Cirrus is a little jealous that Cessna has been doing it a lot longer. Cirrus's name is mud in the cert industry, this is normally where jhugz comes charging in to the rescue for his precious cirrus. I'm not giving out my resume to you or him, but I did work cert for a while. Choose to believe it or don't, it doesn't matter and it doesn't change facts.

Finally, my favorite, "parachute is a gimmick". The parachute is a gimmick. A gimmick is, "a trick or device used to attract business or attention <a marketing gimmick>". By every measure the parachute contributes nothing to safety nor does it contribute to lowering fatal accident rates. I've quickly refreshed myself with those rates on the COPA website to make sure I wasn't dreaming up numbers.

Anyhow, toodles!
 
Gents,

Cessna's, Piper's, Beechcraft's, Cirrus's, Diamond's, etc are ALL airplanes and they ALL crash.

Trying to compare one being "better" than another is so futile, we may as well have yet another Boeing vs Airbus thread.
 
MikeD said:
Gents,

Cessna's, Piper's, Beechcraft's, Cirrus's, Diamond's, etc are ALL airplanes and they ALL crash.

Trying to compare one being "better" than another is so futile, we may as well have yet another Boeing vs Airbus thread.
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Agreed. Let's also agree that all salesmen/women are liars.
 
MikeD said:
Gents,

Cessna's, Piper's, Beechcraft's, Cirrus's, Diamond's, etc are ALL airplanes and they ALL crash.

Trying to compare one being "better" than another is so futile, we may as well have yet another Boeing vs Airbus thread.
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This was EXACTLY my point. Thanks Mike!
 
dustoff17 said:
So much for derailing the thread and taking it outside!
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I think it was heading this way anyway...
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I was just trying to maintain my personal minimums by keeping keeping on track... Which I clearly busted...
 
jynxyjoe said:
Agreed. Let's also agree that all salesmen/women are liars.
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AGREED

I wasn't trying to make the Cirrus rep look like a saint. I think they got him off a used car lot. With him, It really wasn't about the bashing the opposition. He was trying to sell the "image". Apparently a Cirrus is the only way to reach "baller status"... He likened ownership to joining an exclusive club. My client was in his mid-40s, married with 2 kids, his "ballin" days were over. He knew it, and was ok with that. He bought a Diamond.

jynxyjoe said:
my favorite, "parachute is a gimmick". The parachute is a gimmick. A gimmick is, "a trick or device used to attract business or attention <a marketing gimmick>". By every measure the parachute contributes nothing to safety nor does it contribute to lowering fatal accident rates. I've quickly refreshed myself with those rates on the COPA website to make sure I wasn't dreaming up numbers.
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You are absolutely right, but that still didn't stop Cessna from installing BRS on new 172/182s. The Dirt Catcher even has one as an option. At least Cessna is going through the process to make the C162 right. Columbia had similar issues with the 400.

I was actually surprised that the Cessna reps failed to mention a couple instances where the CAPS rocket motor left the airplane sideways & through the cockpit... That would have been a good scare tactic.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
AGREED

I wasn't trying to make the Cirrus rep look like a saint. I think they got him off a used car lot. With him, It really wasn't about the bashing the opposition. He was trying to sell the "image". Apparently a Cirrus is the only way to reach "baller status"... He likened ownership to joining an exclusive club. My client was in his mid-40s, married with 2 kids, his "ballin" days were over. He knew it, and was ok with that. He bought a Diamond.



You are absolutely right, but that still didn't stop Cessna from installing BRS on new 172/182s. The Dirt Catcher even has one as an option. At least Cessna is going through the process to make the C162 right. Columbia had similar issues with the 400.

I was actually surprised that the Cessna reps failed to mention a couple instances where the CAPS rocket motor left the airplane sideways & through the cockpit... That would have been a good scare tactic.
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Yeah, it seems like GA is circling the tubes and 8 manufacturers are all fighting over a shrinking pie. It get's stupider every day I guess. I always wanted Beech to come out on top, but now it's some sort of crappy Raytheon/Onex vortex of stupidity.

If it were me, I'd go back in time (however one does that) bring Bill Lear back to today's day and age, cure his leukemia, put him to work pumping out GA aircraft, make Lear swallow up the whole GD GA market, and then I'd probably personally fire every one of these clowns making airplanes today. Furthermore, after we take over GA aviation as we know it, I'll turn his attention to Boeing. That's right Boeing, YOU MADE MY LIST.

Learisms (from Wiki):
On aerodynamics: "If it looks good, it will fly good."
On management: "If you put up half of the money, you get to make half of the decisions."
On electronics: "There's only one thing worse than an intermittent, that's an intermittent intermittent."
On weight reduction in the Learjet: "I'd sell my grandmother to save one pound."
 
ppragman said:
If I ever see you in person it'll already be over, ahhh snap! But seriously, beers if I ever get out that far east (ewww).
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Eh it's the Mid-South man. Besides, might end up in Charleston SC next year if things work out correctly. That may be the East coast but it's worth a trip to see.

Beers are on me young punk. :)
 
Then...after 6 pages I think it's decided and I think we all agree - Personal minimums are weak. It is better to die doing something you are uncomfortable with than to be weak and accept that you are not ready or able to handle anything and everything. Personal minimums are ghey. Robert Goyer flying a Cirrus in a tutu ghey.
 
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