Flight Planning

F9DXER

F9DXER

Well-Known Member
More of a curiosity - that and it is a quiet day at work -

How far in advance do you folks calculate your flight? Not when you send the release.

We get winds every 6 hours but amazingly it take the vendor about 5 hours to process them?
Thus a flight departing at 21z is using the 12z winds information and not the 18z data


My philosiphy is once our system gets the newest winds, I can calculate flights that are due within the next 5-6 hours as nothing is going to change until new data is received.
 
Usually calculated, released, and sent between 1-2 hours before ptime. This ensures close to accurate performance calculations based on current temp/pressure that I'm sure both load and captain appreciate. Even on glorious weather days I hold off on calculations until I'm in that window. Our upper level winds load about 3 mins after they are issued, so they are never a concern. Route, performance, and surface weather are the reasons I keep it under 2 hours.
 
If you calculate takeoff weights and runway performance when you do your releases, things can change. In five to six hours the the temp will rise or decrease giving you better or worse performance. We used Areodata for our runway performance numbers.
Forecast's change all the time, pax counts change. We usually work them up approx two hours before the ETD. I have seen too many people get burned by working up the release hours in advance and would not re-check anything and send them.
I don't see any advantage of working up a release that far in advance.
 
At my previous dispatch job it was common to work the release up 1/2 hour prior to departure then release/send the packet 1 hour prior to departure.

I worked my releases up earlier than that, but I (briefly) double or triple checked everything before sending.

I'm of the opinion working them up a little early is ok, BUT only if everything is being verified before firing them off.
 
I realize that things will can/do change. But I plan for that in the initial calcuation. I also check everything one more time before the release goes out the door.

Not a big fan of aerodata.
 
I've only used Aerodata and my only complaint is the 20 minute TLRs out of DEN. That was really the only "problem" airport I ran across. Most the others only took 5 minutes or so.

A hot day in ABQ with flaps optimized didn't take that long so I'm not sure what is up with Denver TLRs.
 
Keep in mind the regs for 121 require that we provide the most current weather and other data, the ideal time is after the newest METAR is issued unless you have your own EWINS department :) then it can be done anytime..

Of course on weight restricted aircraft the temp and current Wx is a must..
 
Didn't see this question so sorry for the very late response.

The main reason I hate it is because it has to be done before I can calculate the flight.

Presuming no performance penalties, I would estimate that 99% of the flights I dispatch are landing weight limited and 99% of those are structural limits. So if I already know a flight is going to be limited by structural limits why do I need to run through aerodata at all?

Remember flights are dispatched between airports not runways.

The last placed I worked, we operated 727's with -17 engines, mainly out of MDW. When I calculated a flight (Navtech) if the flight was less than 170K TOW and the air temp was 70F or less. Wet or dry conditions. 29.92 or better. That flight could depart on any of MDW's main runways.


Where as Aerodata, you have to choose a runway, temp, and pressure as a minimum before a calculation will take place. Waste of time.

Personally I think Aerodata would be better if it would let me set up parameters the first time for each airport that I use and save that for future flights. Again based on a clean aircraft.
 
We plan and send 4 hours prior - however, we are flying heavy jets to anywhere there is a runway and may not necessarily have all of the support as far as getting flight papers to the crew.

In some cases we send the paperwork before the previous leg, which could be up to 6-8 hours, depending on how problematic it is getting flight papers at the mid-station. Getting flight papers to crews in the Mideast can be like pulling teeth from a newborn. The captains all have company Satellite Cell phones, so when we remark the release "call for wx update before dept" that complies with the "latest and greatest" requirement from the FARs.

Currently, our crews have max weight manuals on board the aircraft, but we are beginning to investigate computerized AeroData.

For you guys using AeroData with SABRE Dispatch Manager- if you left click on the MTOW button, SABRE will go through and in AeroData select the most optimum runway, forecast the weather and automagically generate the MTOWs and the max landing weight. If you right click on the MTOW button, thats when you get the little phase of flight selector buttons.
 
dispatchguy said:
For you guys using AeroData with SABRE Dispatch Manager- if you left click on the MTOW button, SABRE will go through and in AeroData select the most optimum runway, forecast the weather and automagically generate the MTOWs and the max landing weight. If you right click on the MTOW button, thats when you get the little phase of flight selector buttons.
Click to expand...


Sabre does not choose the optimum runway - that is already set up in the data mx side. Thus the runway it calculates could be closed in which case on gets a phone call.

There are some flight planning systems that can read the notams and choose the appropriate runway - LIDO being one of them.
 
F9DXER said:
There are some flight planning systems that can read the notams and choose the appropriate runway - LIDO being one of them.
Click to expand...

Yup. There are far more superior systems out there. We use the Dispatch Monitor/Aerodata set up here. Aerodata is simple enough but Dispatch Monitor when compared to a system like Navtech comes out looking like a wine cooler at Octoberfest.
 
F9DXER said:
dispatchguy said:
For you guys using AeroData with SABRE Dispatch Manager- if you left click on the MTOW button, SABRE will go through and in AeroData select the most optimum runway, forecast the weather and automagically generate the MTOWs and the max landing weight. If you right click on the MTOW button, thats when you get the little phase of flight selector buttons.
Click to expand...
Sabre does not choose the optimum runway - that is already set up in the data mx side. Thus the runway it calculates could be closed in which case on gets a phone call.

There are some flight planning systems that can read the notams and choose the appropriate runway - LIDO being one of them.
Click to expand...

Sabre also does not automatically take into account things like MEL/CDL penalties (well ... kind of) or temp changes (when you are calculating the TLR vs when your flight will be taking off / landing). Sabre is smart enough to tell you "The automatically selected landing/take off runway CURRENTLY has a tailwind." but not smart enough to grab the forecast and select a different runway. I THINK we can get on AeroData's website and set a given runway as the preferred. Not 100% sure on that, but I do know we can go in and remove runways that are going to be closed long term.

As to the original question; we have some dispatchers who work up releases 2 to 3 hours before they are due to be sent which means 3 to 4 hours before a flight departs. :mad: One of my pet peeves ... makes me want to :chair:
 
BigFellor said:
As to the original question; we have some dispatchers who work up releases 2 to 3 hours before they are due to be sent which means 3 to 4 hours before a flight departs. :mad: One of my pet peeves ... makes me want to :chair:
Click to expand...



Guess you have never worked long haul international? Have to be on file 4-6 hours before ETD. Nor am I guessing you have never dispatched a flight 8-10 hours early for the simple reason that the crew has to take their roundtrip paperwork with them because no reliable way of communicating at their destination?

And yes I have done verbal releases via Stockholm Radio and it sucks.
 
F9DXER said:
Guess you have never worked long haul international? Have to be on file 4-6 hours before ETD. Nor am I guessing you have never dispatched a flight 8-10 hours early for the simple reason that the crew has to take their roundtrip paperwork with them because no reliable way of communicating at their destination?

And yes I have done verbal releases via Stockholm Radio and it sucks.
Click to expand...

You're right, I haven't. But that's apples vs. oranges. I'm talking about a regional with CLT - TYS kind of trips.
 
F9DXER said:
Guess you have never worked long haul international? Have to be on file 4-6 hours before ETD. Nor am I guessing you have never dispatched a flight 8-10 hours early for the simple reason that the crew has to take their roundtrip paperwork with them because no reliable way of communicating at their destination?

And yes I have done verbal releases via Stockholm Radio and it sucks.
Click to expand...

Bingos over Atlanta sucks bad enough when it's so busy you can't keep 'em on. I've done seemingly creative things for supp 121 ops, but one operations creative is another operation's normal, as I'm sure you know all too well.

BigFellor said:
You're right, I haven't. But that's apples vs. oranges. I'm talking about a regional with CLT - TYS kind of trips.
Click to expand...

I agree. Let's say it... That is laziness. On a P6 SKC kind of day with nothing enroute you can still get bitten. I worked them up with plenty of time remaining, but I definitely didn't send them.

That's good insight though from F9 and DXguy. I've always wondered how much time a pond crossing trip took to thoroughly plan up.
 
JLF said:
I agree. Let's say it... That is laziness. On a P6 SKC kind of day with nothing enroute you can still get bitten. I worked them up with plenty of time remaining, but I definitely didn't send them.

I've always wondered how much time a pond crossing trip took to thoroughly plan up.
Click to expand...

Not sure if I call it laziness. Everyone dispatches differently. I tell that to everyone I train. There is no right or wrong way to dispatch in the terms of what each dispatcher does.

For me personally, I would rather work far enough ahead because I have found it a whole lot easier to deal with minor corrections than major issues. But again from the original question, was when do you actually calculate the flight? My philosiphy is once wind data has processed I am good for 6 hours - whether I calculate 5 hours or 1 hour in advance, there will be no change. Like everyone else I send the release when required and I also do make a final check before it is out the door.

As far as over the ponds, when I first got checked out they could take up to an hour. Just like anything else, the more experience and "practice" and I had them down to less than 15 min easily. In fact, the hardest part was dealing with EuroControl. God what a PITA!!!!!

I actually miss doing long haul international and generally found them to be easier then doing domestic(after a couple of years experience), besides one doesn't have to deal with MDW/LGA. :D
 
I am also down in the 15-20 min category for International Long Haul stuff - for the most part.

I HATE Eurocontrol - worthless as tits on a man. What I have done at my current carrier is built a series of oceanic entries and exits (I'm our key user), that are all RAD compliant, from each of the oceanic entry/exit fixes, to each of the airports that we fly to in Euro-land. So, if say I am going to Frankfurt, and the oceanic ends at say RATSU, just go into DM and pull my RATSU-EDDF W01 route, and throw it in there. When I get the No Errors from the validator, its like my own little victory :)

I cant wait for our auto-rad validator to become live in SABRE.

For our flights that are usually payload critical, I'll at least run them when I first sit down for a shift, that way, IF there is a problem making the weight, I can start fiddling around with it early, and let the planners know if we need to start thinking tech stop.

It was really fun when the temps in Kuwait were in the high 40s and low 50s a few months back, and with a very low altimeter setting - and that was at 0300 local time! I couldnt carry shiite!
 
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