Explain Weather to Me From a Pilot's POV

R

RobertB

Well-Known Member
Why is it that pilots want to deviate around weather so much?

Is their a level of weather that you will go through or a certain level that is your "cutoff?"

For example: Is there a reason a CRJ9 will go through weather, but a MD88, four in trail won't? Is it something to do with the limitations of different types of planes?

Any weather tidbits from a pilot's POV would be appreciated so that us controllers have a better appreciation and/or understanding of the need to deviate so much...
 
RobertB said:
Why is it that pilots want to deviate around weather so much?

Is their a level of weather that you will go through or a certain level that is your "cutoff?"

For example: Is there a reason a CRJ9 will go through weather, but a MD88, four in trail won't? Is it something to do with the limitations of different types of planes?

Any weather tidbits from a pilot's POV would be appreciated so that us controllers have a better appreciation and/or understanding of the need to deviate so much...
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Well, considering MD-88's are Cat III and CRJ9's are not, it probably has a lot more to do with the risk assessment of the crew.
 
RobertB said:
Why is it that pilots want to deviate around weather so much?

Is their a level of weather that you will go through or a certain level that is your "cutoff?"

For example: Is there a reason a CRJ9 will go through weather, but a MD88, four in trail won't? Is it something to do with the limitations of different types of planes?

Any weather tidbits from a pilot's POV would be appreciated so that us controllers have a better appreciation and/or understanding of the need to deviate so much...
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mother nature is hell, and pilots are Maverick-like. some will always try to do it.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Well, considering MD-88's are Cat III and CRJ9's are not, it probably has a lot more to do with the risk assessment of the crew.
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The risk assessment of the crew makes sense. I was just wondering why I had a MD88 refuse to make a turn the other day when I had jet after jet (CRJs, 737s, etc.) make the turn and had no problem or complaint doing it.
 
Well, you tell me! :)

What did the MD-88 crew see and assess risk to that the CRJ9 crew did not?
 
Doug Taylor said:
Well, you tell me! :)

What did the MD-88 crew see and assess risk to that the CRJ9 crew did not?
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I have no idea at all. I thought it had something to do with a CRJ being better equipped to fly through that weather than a MD88, which doesn't really make sense at all to me. In the end, the MD88 pilot is in charge of his own plane and if he can't take a turn well then I am going to move others out of his way to avoid a conflict. It was just bizarre that a CRJ would go through, the MD88 four miles in trail wouldn't, but then the B737 four in trail of the MD88 would... It is a lot different looking at a scope and saying what the heck guys?

Do you guys have a cutoff on your weather radar that is "off-limits" based on your aircraft type?

For example: Will a B727 fly through no stronger than a level 2 storm while a B737 will fly through a level 3? Or is it just up to the PIC at the time to make a judgment call?
 
It would be nice to get fam trips back so I can see what you guys do in the air and understand why some planes need/want different things especially when weather is involved...

Common sense would say that the MD88 with 150 passengers and a much larger airplane would easily be able to go the same route that a CRJ9 just went through...
 
Don't confuse making the airport with higher skill.

There are days where we are "legal" but I look back in retrospect and think "I shouldn't have done that" and other days where it's the reverse.


The further you get in your career, the more things run through your head. If someone asks a neophyte to do 250 to the marker, they may only consider 5 things, me, personally, I might consider 25 to 30 whereas that's just my operational paranoia.
 
RobertB said:
It would be nice to get fam trips back so I can see what you guys do in the air and understand why some planes need/want different things especially when weather is involved...

Common sense would say that the MD88 with 150 passengers and a much larger airplane would easily be able to go the same route that a CRJ9 just went through...
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Fam flights would be just as beneficial as us touring ATC facilities. It's unfortunate it isn't more of a common practice.

As far as the why question; are you allowed to ask pilots questions in events like this? Not to question their judgment but more so just to get an understanding. Maybe even tell them "your not in trouble, but could you give is a buzz when your on the ground?" I know if I experience something odd with ATC and it is quite on the freq. I'll ask a question or call on the phone later. An open line of communication is important for everybody.
 
Codyjp said:
Fam flights would be just as beneficial as us touring ATC facilities. It's unfortunate it isn't more of a common practice.

As far as the why question; are you allowed to ask pilots questions in events like this? Not to question their judgment but more so just to get an understanding. Maybe even tell them "your not in trouble, but could you give is a buzz when your on the ground?" I know if I experience something odd with ATC and it is quite on the freq. I'll ask a question or call on the phone later. An open line of communication is important for everybody.
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Umm that really wasn't going through my head when I had numerous aircraft on frequency, but it might be something I get them to do next time just so I know what they were going through. I figured most would just blow me off for asking them to give me a call (take it as questioning their judgment) and let me know what they could/couldn't do or why they didn't take a vector.

Seriously, my experience with aviation from a flying point of view is sitting in the back, drinking a glass or two or wine, and going to sleep. I have no idea what goes on in a commercial cockpit at all.
 
RobertB said:
Umm that really wasn't going through my head when I had numerous aircraft on frequency, but it might be something I get them to do next time just so I know what they were going through. I figured most would just blow me off for asking them to give me a call (take it as questioning their judgment) and let me know what they could/couldn't do or why they didn't take a vector.

Seriously, my experience with aviation from a flying point of view is sitting in the back, drinking a glass or two or wine, and going to sleep. I have no idea what goes on in a commercial cockpit at all.
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Totally understand where your coming from with this. It is a general stigma I think. If you had asked him though why you'd of had one less thing running through your mind. ;)

On that note, I take it you work at a TRACON facility, what is the chances of a pilot getting a tour scheduled of one?
 
It's very possible the MD88 guy had a very bad experience once upon a time going through a cell that looked just like that one the RJ9 went through and the MD88 captain, based on his experience decided to go around it. Or it may have been something as simple as the fact that he may have had a crewmeal or coffee out and didn't want to risk dumping anything in his lap.

I'll admit, you guys are looking through the very colored lenses of a radar scope and a radio freq and with those it can be very difficult to get a sense of why certain planes to what. It works the other way as well. Often times we have no idea why a plane in front of us will get a certain clearance and while we expect the same, it never comes.

And just to clarify, there is no "max allowable" type of weather we can go through. It's just judgment. Aircraft radars vary hugely. The CRJ radar is all but useless beyond 80 miles but when operated correctly, pretty good at showing stuff in a 20 mile ring. That said, what looks big and nasty on our screen may not even be painting on your screen, or more often than not, the moderate to severe to extreme precip you warn me about may not be showing up on my scope because it is 2 miles below us.
 
Some day I will bust through some cells and take a beating, while other days I will ask for a deviation because I got passengers or dont want to take the hassle of going through the cell, depends on my workload, fuel, passengers, cell size, mood, risk assessment, what I see with my eyes, etc. Sometimes I wish I would have asked for a deviation.

I fly single pilot, I wonder in a crew environment who makes the calls?
 
Fly_Unity said:
I fly single pilot, I wonder in a crew environment who makes the calls?
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The guy not sleeping (or on his laptop).

Actually, normally who ever is flying that leg will ask for the deviations. That said, the captain can normally "suggest" going one way or the other. An FO could say they weren't comfortable with something as well and say they'd feel better going a different way too.
 
RobertB said:
The risk assessment of the crew makes sense. I was just wondering why I had a MD88 refuse to make a turn the other day when I had jet after jet (CRJs, 737s, etc.) make the turn and had no problem or complaint doing it.
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It's 100% possible the MD88 crew didn't know how to use the radar...

As far as a "cutoff" goes yes, anything above level II or moderate we should not go in.
 
It is all judgment in my opinion. Passengers don't really like storms or bumps, sometimes the cell is hard to read if it will be bumpy or not. Plus there is the liability of pax because you don't want someone injured and claiming to sue or cause a problem. Sometimes it is just the crew, maybe they are scared of the weather.

For instance there is a jagged line of TSRA from Columbus OH back towards St. Louis, MO laid out NE to SW. Some gaps in it. Many aircraft are finding holes. And everyone is getting through. However one aircraft doing SDF-ORD wants to go all the way to Little Rock, AR then cut north to ORD. This would include a ton of fuel and kicking pax off. Was there something wrong with the equipment? Not in my opinion, it was an E170. Some of the other planes getting through were mainline, RJ's, even a P46T.
 
Codyjp said:
Totally understand where your coming from with this. It is a general stigma I think. If you had asked him though why you'd of had one less thing running through your mind. ;)

On that note, I take it you work at a TRACON facility, what is the chances of a pilot getting a tour scheduled of one?
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We welcome tours all the time. Just call your local facility and someone would be happy to give you a tour...
 
I fly in the right seat of a cargo Falcon 20. No pax to worry about. Yet some captains will avoid storms(even just rain) like the plague while others will go right up to the edge and have a peek, looking for even the smallest hole to get through.
I think it's a combination of personality, experience, judgment and cojones.
 
As others have said, combination of thousands of factors. Most of them happen inside the PIC's head. I will say this: While I still consider myself to be more on the "let's try it" side than the "average" pilot, I'm a lot more conservative than I was when they first handed me the keys to a 210 and said "get this crap there by 6". It's funny, I thought it would go the other way...
 
As others have said, it is very individual. A friend refers to incidents as 'scorch marks' and you can see where the pilot has come close to getting burned by the number of idiosyncracies s/he exhibits. Some guys really know how to use the radar while others don't. And too, remember most onboard radar is little more than a blind man's stick. You know SOMETHING is there but not precisely what it is.

The other factor is how dynamic the wx is. 10 miles in trail on a hot summer day means the last report MAY help but it the hole may have closed or moved. As others have said one day you run the edges and it is smooth. The next day you have your teeth rattled.

Some of the very small stuff I get to fly in or fly has an incredible amount of info. The XM satellite is better than anything I ever flew with in an airliner and by moving out I can see the systems and where it is improving and where it is falling apart.

I know it creates problems for controllers and on those days when EVERYONE is deviating, it has got to me a madhouse trying to figure out the code, especially when everyone has their own code of what they will and will not do. My hats off to the guys on the ground on the scopes.

I have offered some other solutions when I can not comply with the clearance including doing a 180deg turn. It works best when both parties resolve to find a joint solution. That does not always happen.
 
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