For anyone considering Aviation as a career.

Seen it before. Like most of Michael Moore's stuff, he has good intentions of bringing public attention to an important topic, but he conclusions are incorrect and as a result his credibility suffers.

Case in point: He asks 'how are these companies allowed to get away with this? I guess that's the point of capitalism. It allows you to get away with anything. Like making a profit off the death of an employee.'

First off, the companies aren't getting away with anything. Why is the pay so low? Because employees are willing to accept it. Period. There is no crime in that. And no airline makes a profit from any persons death. They just don't. Its not part of any business plan. And to imply otherwise shows a complete lack of understanding about how the industry works.

The starting pay is low. It will stay low and might very well get lower until such time as it becomes so low that airlines find themselves with a genuine shortage of new applicants. Then it will start to go up a bit and when the number applicants returns to normal levels, it will stabilize and stay there until the level of new applicants drops again.
 
Michael Moore would have you believe that all pilots make 19K a year. His message is that airline managers are somehow evil for wanting the lowest labor costs he can get. I wonder if he pays above sticker price on anything he buys, including the people that work for him

I think the message should be: Potential airline pilots take note. This is the reality of the airline industry.
 
As a career, it seems professional pilots are horrible about getting the word out about the state of your industry. Why are CFIs not talking to their students about how hard it is to find a job...even with a slew of ratings already earned? Why are the universities not being upfront about the obvious uselessness of an aviation / pro-pilot degree? As entrants into the career, why do young guys take out $50K plus in loans for a chance (only a chance mind you) for a job that starts at $25k per year?
 
hook_dupin said:
As a career, it seems professional pilots are horrible about getting the word out about the state of your industry. Why are CFIs not talking to their students about how hard it is to find a job...even with a slew of ratings already earned? Why are the universities not being upfront about the obvious uselessness of an aviation / pro-pilot degree? As entrants into the career, why do young guys take out $50K plus in loans for a chance (only a chance mind you) for a job that starts at $25k per year?
Click to expand...

Good questions. Here is an answer: the same reason a company like Toyota won't tell you when you go to purchase a car that the accelerator sticks and will cause death. A drastic example, but I think you get the gist of what I am saying.
 
"As a career, it seems professional pilots are horrible about getting the word out about the state of your industry."

I'm no fan of puppy mill marketing. But there is something to be said for the saying "the best time to get in is during the worst time in the biz".

Point being, aviation is a cyclical business that is somewhat in concert with the economy. It's better to be at the bottom of the wave so you can ride it up.

Some people think the economy will never recover. Others think the world will end in 2012.

But what if they are wrong.....
 
I would like to see the complete documentary if any one would like to provide the title.

In addition, here are my few thoughts. It is a universal economic rule, when demand is high and supply is low, the prices are higher and vice versa. Same principal applies to airline and to be more specific, regional carriers. There is abundance in pilots and not may jobs available. There are pilots out there who bite the bullet and fly for 16-20k annually just so they can make up jet time and promote them selves to bigger airliners. It is, after-all, all about the bigger picture. I, myself, will end up following this path.
Flying is a skilled profession just in the same way as being a doctor or an Engineer. It requires a lot of hard work and financial burden to make it where these pilots are today. Unfortunately, the return on investment is dismal. I wish and am hopeful the trend will change. :beer:
 
DE727UPS said:
"
Some people think the economy will never recover. Others think the world will end in 2012.

But what if they are wrong.....
Click to expand...


I hope the latter group is wrong. I have desired all my life to fly jets and it will be a disappointing end to my hard work if it doesn't happen. :(
 
"Flying is a skilled profession just in the same way as being a doctor or an Engineer. It requires a lot of hard work and financial burden to make it where these pilots are today. Unfortunately, the return on investment is dismal"

I can only disagree with the dismal part. That would just be my opinion based on my own personal situation. YYMV...
 
I've always done great in recessions! :)

For anything you want to do, once you lose hope, you've lost completely.
 
I'm a 3rd year regional pilot going on 4th. Im far from rich but also far from poor. Pay will go up in the upcoming years. Now would be an excellent time to begin flight training and take it slow.
 
I have seen some of Michael Moore's films and to be honest if 10% of the content is accurate... it is very scary! :eek:

Perhaps he believes that Airlines are taking out life insurance policies on their own pilots? He has mentioned this before in one of his other films when investigating other industries?

Either way, I think that we all agree that when a bus driver earns twice as much as a pilot (and yes, the bus drivers do deserve it too :rawk:), it is a poor show of support from the airlines and shows their disregard for their pilot family.

Perhaps if some jerk at the top gave up his 2.8 million dollar salary (plus bonus), there would be enough to go around for the food stamp pilots? :clap:
 
esa17 said:
Canadian beer sucks!


Best thing MM ever did.
Click to expand...

I don't really g a s about MM or what he has to say-generally-but he's got it right on this one. You guys prob don't remember the NO FSFO bag stickers going around a while back-but I do.

Oh, btw-NO FSFO means no food stamp first officers.

ridiculous
 
When I first learned about pilots making food stamp/McDonalds wages, I was absolutely appalled. How could airline management get away with that? After reading many posts on JC and doing some in depth study on free market economics, I realize that it really is the pilots that are willing to work for these meager wages that are to blame.

It would be nice if management paid them a wage that they could actually survive on, but why should they? The could lower the pay even more and still have a line out the door people who want fly for them. That leaves the pilots with absolutely no bargaining power for higher wages. It is sad that this is what the industry turned into, but that is the reality of the situation.

For some people it is worth the sacrifice. You might be able to eventually get a better paying flying job, then again you might not. After 10 years in this business I have learned that there is one irrefutable rule when it comes to professional flying: No matter how low your salary is, there is always someone who is willing to do it for less. Some people will do it for no money at all, and a few will even pay your employer to do your job.
 
Trip7 said:
I'm a 3rd year regional pilot going on 4th. Im far from rich but also far from poor. Pay will go up in the upcoming years. Now would be an excellent time to begin flight training and take it slow.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what the DPE I did my PPL checkride with said. I am taking it slow, no 100K student loans here...
 
Seems like a good message to get out.

He needs to work on his acting skills though. It's almost comical when he's interviewing the bald FO and trying to look ignorant. Is that how he is in his other "documentaries"?
 
If I could go back and do it all over again, would I? Yes! I love flying... and that is the problem. We love what we do, and we pay big for it! People can't compete with the view from my office!
 
pilot4500 said:
When I first learned about pilots making food stamp/McDonalds wages, I was absolutely appalled. How could airline management get away with that? After reading many posts on JC and doing some in depth study on free market economics, I realize that it really is the pilots that are willing to work for these meager wages that are to blame.

It would be nice if management paid them a wage that they could actually survive on, but why should they? The could lower the pay even more and still have a line out the door people who want fly for them. That leaves the pilots with absolutely no bargaining power for higher wages. It is sad that this is what the industry turned into, but that is the reality of the situation.

For some people it is worth the sacrifice. You might be able to eventually get a better paying flying job, then again you might not. After 10 years in this business I have learned that there is one irrefutable rule when it comes to professional flying: No matter how low your salary is, there is always someone who is willing to do it for less. Some people will do it for no money at all, and a few will even pay your employer to do your job.
Click to expand...


I really liked it when that mainline UAL duckhead got on there crying-if he REALLY wanted to fix the problem-he'd be part of making sure that EVERY pilot carrying pax for that particular airline was on the SAME SENIORITY LIST. But-we ALL know that will never happen.:rawk:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top