Delta, US Air alter slot swap

Why do you say try? The original DOT ruling said give up, not sell, and it didn't say who got to decide who got the slots. All it said was a carrier with less than 5%, which all the one's picked are. Nowhere did it say "Give or sell to SWA."
 
My comment was partially tongue-in-cheek however....

I know it didn't say it explicitly, but I found it interesting that they agreed to the slot swap on the condition that they get to name the beneficiaries, and SWA was not among them. SWA also has "limited or no service" at the two airports.

Just a casual observation from the recliner...:beer:
 
Part of it has to do with the fact that SWA also wanted the DOT to force DL/LCC to also give up gates to them. This is a HUGE middle finger to SWA, plain and simple.


Not sure about LCC, but this ain't your father's DAL anymore.
 
IMO, even going into LGA is a huge shift in the SWA business plan. If Herb had smoked or drank himself into the grave yet, he'd be spinning in it.....
 
kellwolf said:
IMO, even going into LGA is a huge shift in the SWA business plan.
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That's because their business plan has matured and there are no more city pairs that they can earn a yield on that don't involve one of the larger airports.
 
Sure there are. They are just taking advantage of the openings while they are there. Memphis would be a city in which they could get a good yield and I do not believe they operate out of there. Sounds like and looks like Cincituky might be a place to shop as well. The only problem is they do not ask me for my input so this is pure opinion. :)
 
amorris311 said:
Sure there are. They are just taking advantage of the openings while they are there. Memphis would be a city in which they could get a good yield and I do not believe they operate out of there. Sounds like and looks like Cincituky might be a place to shop as well. The only problem is they do not ask me for my input so this is pure opinion. :)
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Actually, MEM would probably pull yields for BNA, JAN, BHM and LIT. Short list of places that were supposedly in the works back when I was a ramp rat there: ABE, RIC, SAV, COS. All of those would likely be good city pairs for them, instead we've seen PIT, IAD and LGA. The whole reason they were flying into ISP is to avoid the clusters that are LGA, JFK and EWR. Plenty of cities in FL they could start small service to. There are some cities Allegiant serves but SWA doesn't, and they're making a killing. I think SWA has been diverted by the "kill the major airlines and claim their market share" that started when they gunned for US Airways in PHL. They went into PIT to try to finish them off. United was weakened, and look! New service to IAD. Sun Country's on the ropes.....go to MSP! Midwest bought by a regional....beef up MKE! It starting to seem that they've gotten away from "connecting the dots" and opening stations into underserved or unserved markets and gotten into the head-to-head competition that tends to turn into a war of attrition. Problem is, they no longer have the profit margins to win in a war of attrition.....
 
kellwolf said:
Actually, MEM would probably pull yields for BNA, JAN, BHM and LIT. Short list of places that were supposedly in the works back when I was a ramp rat there: ABE, RIC, SAV, COS. All of those would likely be good city pairs for them, instead we've seen PIT, IAD and LGA. The whole reason they were flying into ISP is to avoid the clusters that are LGA, JFK and EWR. Plenty of cities in FL they could start small service to. There are some cities Allegiant serves but SWA doesn't, and they're making a killing. I think SWA has been diverted by the "kill the major airlines and claim their market share" that started when they gunned for US Airways in PHL. They went into PIT to try to finish them off. United was weakened, and look! New service to IAD. Sun Country's on the ropes.....go to MSP! Midwest bought by a regional....beef up MKE! It starting to seem that they've gotten away from "connecting the dots" and opening stations into underserved or unserved markets and gotten into the head-to-head competition that tends to turn into a war of attrition. Problem is, they no longer have the profit margins to win in a war of attrition.....
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...And with MSP we have SWA taking on Sun Country in the HHH terminal. Had SWA gone to the main terminal it may have been slightly different. SWA started with service to Midway but that has now increased to other cities and I only see it increasing. People like SWA and they Love avoiding the main terminal.... That can only help the SWA machine.
 
JEP said:
...And with MSP we have SWA taking on Sun Country in the HHH terminal. Had SWA gone to the main terminal it may have been slightly different. SWA started with service to Midway but that has now increased to other cities and I only see it increasing. People like SWA and they Love avoiding the main terminal.... That can only help the SWA machine.
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Rumor here was when we lost the MSP base (which has yet to happen), SWA was gonna take some of the gates. I LOLed. First, Delta would never let them have the gates. Second, SWA knows the Lindbergh terminal sucks. Oh please, can I walk 1/2 mile to get to my connecting flight? I love DHing there with a short connect. Scheduling is always calling me wanting to know where I am. "I'm in the airport. DH landed in F, my flight goes out of B. I'll be there in 10 minutes probably. That's assuming I don't take the tram and it breaks down."
 
kellwolf said:
Rumor here was when we lost the MSP base (which has yet to happen), SWA was gonna take some of the gates. I LOLed. First, Delta would never let them have the gates. Second, SWA knows the Lindbergh terminal sucks. Oh please, can I walk 1/2 mile to get to my connecting flight? I love DHing there with a short connect. Scheduling is always calling me wanting to know where I am. "I'm in the airport. DH landed in F, my flight goes out of B. I'll be there in 10 minutes probably. That's assuming I don't take the tram and it breaks down."
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No doubt.....more traffic, long distances between gates, parking nightmares, etc....I'll stick with the HHH when given the choice. The planes have easy access too in and out of HHH...
 
I have a sneaky suspicion that the swap will get approved now...I figured that USA and DAL would find a way to successfully do an end run around SWA's obvious lobby ploy to wedge their way into the LGA market. We'll see how it plays out soon enough but I would think that the DOT would have a hard time denying the deal now being that essentially, USA and DAL are doing exactly what the DOT said they had to albeit with their own spin on it. If it gets shot down this time I won't be surprised to see a lawsuit filed against the DOT by the two legacies.
 
RightSeatGirl said:
I have a sneaky suspicion that the swap will get approved now...I figured that USA and DAL would find a way to successfully do an end run around SWA's obvious lobby ploy to wedge their way into the LGA market. We'll see how it plays out soon enough but I would think that the DOT would have a hard time denying the deal now being that essentially, USA and DAL are doing exactly what the DOT said they had to albeit with their own spin on it. If it gets shot down this time I won't be surprised to see a lawsuit filed against the DOT by the two legacies.
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I believe it's the DOJ holding it up, not the DOT. Also, can someone explain to me how the DOJ or DOT are susceptible to lobbyists? Is there some congressional group I'm unware of that dictates the DOJ or DOT? Honest question.
 
Negative, it's the DOT...And if you don't think Lobbyist $$$ can infect or influence decisions made by government agencies then apparently you've been living on the Moon Joe. Backroom politics and deals are made daily, money exchanges hands, decisions get influenced or outright bought by those with more cash you will ever see in your lifetime all in the the name of making more money...it's called greed and corruption my friend. And that is how Washington has functioned since advent of the Federal Reserve. Having faith that everything is on the up and up in DC and things are all hunky dory is exactly why we are in the mess we are in.

Do you honestly believe that the elected government officials who are charged with govt. agency oversight cares one iota about slot transactions at Laguardia!? They care about which airline will pay more to get what they want so they have the cash to get re-elected to have lavish banquets nightly held on giant super yachts anchored in New York harbor all paid for with your tax dollars....ain't capitalism frackin grand! Those in charge of agencies like the DOT answer to the elected government Joe..They do what they are told by powerful people that play chess with your tax dollars.
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Negative, it's the DOT...And if you don't think Lobbyist $$$ can infect or influence decisions made by government agencies then apparently you've been living on the Moon Joe. Backroom politics and deals are made daily, money exchanges hands, decisions get influenced or outright bought by those with more cash you will ever see in your lifetime all in the the name of making more money...it's called greed and corruption my friend. And that is how Washington has functioned since advent of the Federal Reserve. Having faith that everything is on the up and up in DC and things are all hunky dory is exactly why we are in the mess we are in.

Do you honestly believe that the elected government officials who are charged with govt. agency oversight cares one iota about slot transactions at Laguardia!? They care about which airline will pay more to get what they want so they have the cash to get re-elected to have lavish banquets nightly held on giant super yachts anchored in New York harbor all paid for with your tax dollars....ain't capitalism frackin grand! Those in charge of agencies like the DOT answer to the elected government Joe..They do what they are told by powerful people that play chess with your tax dollars.
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I believe this sort of a rant has niether credible evidence, nor is it terribly convincing. You are preaching to the choir, not trying to change minds.

My understanding was lobbyist dollars spent on congressional leaders can effect many house and senate committees. That can lead to laws. My understanding was that DOT/DOJ groups were not dictated to by congress. In my reading online quickly, I can find no clear chain of command. Is there some hold on this deal that comes from congress? Or are you saying some back alley meeting by a congressionman is holding up the DOT or DOJ (or whoever) from allowing this swap to occur?

I am willing to listen to some facts, Girl, but I think you're more used to convincing people with your passion that swaying them with reason. Just switch it up for me a little, show me what your talking about instead of grandstanding.

I do believe there are bad civil servants, I believe some are corrupt as well. I guess I'm not nearly as passionate about it as you.
 
I think it is great that they have put the carriers in there for the DOT to either approve or not. Fact of the matter seems to be someone out there was LOBBYING someone to prevent this from going through. They damn near are pushing up against illegal actions by forcing any slots being "Given up." However as stated by DAL/USairways today they both do not want to waste the money in legal cost to get it approved in the orginal form. However with their new plan laid out, it will give the DOT some of what they want (although very questionable move by the DOT).

Also the key is, where will a discount carrier offer service to with the rules in place on LGA/DCA that there is not service to already or would be by DAL/USairways if the deal went through orginally? No where, SWA would come in and try to go LGA-MCO, DCA-MCO, DCA-PHX, LGA-MDW etc etc.... Routes in which are already full of planes and thus hurt the bottom line of others..... I am very glad to see they put such wording in this to prevent SWA from hurting DAL/USairways ability to be profitable in both airports.....

Side note... I personally think, which doesnt mean much, this is it. Either it goes through as this counter proposal states or it will not at all.... Thus NO ONE gains!!!
 
Ya'll don't honestly believe that DAL and LCC came up with this proposal without some input and complicit agreement with DOT beforehand do you?
 
Cptnchia said:
Ya'll don't honestly believe that DAL and LCC came up with this proposal without some input and complicit agreement with DOT beforehand do you?
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Eh I think it has more to do with the DOJ. They basically had no ground to stop the swap on. However you bring some inter agency talk and the DOT says, NO! The DOJ had issues with DAL/USairways becoming a dominate carrier at both airports and thus causing customers harm. But what the DOJ seem to have forgotten they have lacked to think about how this will help the two airlines regain profitability..... And thus allowing them to expand into markets NOT CURRENTLY served!!!! However do you really think by telling Airtran, Jetblue, Swa, Frontier, Midwest or another discount airline to have those slots they will OFFER new cities? Absolutely NOT, they will only over fly the same markets and thus cause fare wars on these two airports (more so then we have today).

Luckily we can all hope the deal goes through as re-applied for..... Other wise it does not go through and both fly status quo at the two and are not able to turn a profit like they would if the deal goes through...... :) Guess time shall tell....
 
I'm actually a little surprised that DAL would be okay with giving some slots to AirTran, wouldn't that add more LGA-ATL competition? Unless, with the shuttle, DAL feels like they have enough capacity on that route that 5 AirTran slots wouldn't really affect them, I don't know.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I believe this sort of a rant has niether credible evidence, nor is it terribly convincing. You are preaching to the choir, not trying to change minds.

My understanding was lobbyist dollars spent on congressional leaders can effect many house and senate committees. That can lead to laws. My understanding was that DOT/DOJ groups were not dictated to by congress. In my reading online quickly, I can find no clear chain of command. Is there some hold on this deal that comes from congress? Or are you saying some back alley meeting by a congressionman is holding up the DOT or DOJ (or whoever) from allowing this swap to occur?

I am willing to listen to some facts, Girl, but I think you're more used to convincing people with your passion that swaying them with reason. Just switch it up for me a little, show me what your talking about instead of grandstanding.

I do believe there are bad civil servants, I believe some are corrupt as well. I guess I'm not nearly as passionate about it as you.
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I wouldn't say passionate, I'd say angry. I'm passionate about flying, beer and hot women..and..maybe a little about Jeeps....but when it comes to government BS...I'm just flat out pissed off..And I feel helpless because there is nothing I can do about it. We now live in the United States of Corporate America. Hell, it's now so blatant we have that big eared fool squatting in the White House signing overtly socialist laws into effect that tell us "Pay! Or else...you're gonna pay more!!" Of course there were back alley deals! There always are with things like this..most of them probably skirt the boundaries of what is legal with a very thin line, many of them are outright criminal. You know how only a small percentage of drugs smuggled into this country are actually found...well...you as an intelligent thinking adult should be able to surmise that only a small percentage of corruption and manipulation of government by corporate interests ever comes into the public light. When in all likelihood, the government is just like the drug smugglers..they are so good at hiding their BS, they can do it right under the noses of the press, of the voters etc..that it has become the norm, not the exception. Do you really believe that the days of the "$100 hammer" have come and gone?
 
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