Dual vs PIC logging issue

MNFlyboy

MNFlyboy

Well-Known Member
Ok, so here's my question. I'm working on putting together an electronic version of my logbook, and I'm coming across an interesting internal dilemma.
While at UND, after receiving my PPL, my flight instructors never logged PIC. Granted, the time in the Arrow before I got my complex endorsement doesn't count, and any IFR time in Actuall doesn't count prior to my Instrument rating, but why don't we log the rest of the other time as PIC?

Can I still log it as PIC after the fact? The total time is already logged, why not go ahead and add up the PIC time, too?

Ready . . . . set . . . . POST!

Thanks,
Go Sioux
 
MNFlyboy said:
and any IFR time in Actuall doesn't count prior to my Instrument rating, but why don't we log the rest of the other time as PIC?
Click to expand...
I'm interested to know why you think that the IFR actual time does not count as PIC.

Go ahead and put it all in your e-log as PIC.
 
Until you have your Instrument rating, while flying an airplane in ACTUAL IFR, I'm not correctly certified for that type of operation. Therefore, I cannot act as PIC. Now, simulated instrument, I can because the aircraft is being operated in VMC conditions, for which I'm appropriately rated with a PPL.

Thanks!
 
MNFlyboy said:
Ok, so here's my question. I'm working on putting together an electronic version of my logbook, and I'm coming across an interesting internal dilemma.
While at UND, after receiving my PPL, my flight instructors never logged PIC. Granted, the time in the Arrow before I got my complex endorsement doesn't count, and any IFR time in Actuall doesn't count prior to my Instrument rating, but why don't we log the rest of the other time as PIC?

Can I still log it as PIC after the fact? The total time is already logged, why not go ahead and add up the PIC time, too?

Ready . . . . set . . . . POST!

Thanks,
Go Sioux
Click to expand...

Acting PIC isn't the same as logging PIC. 61.51 is your friend here. Log it as PIC time. Here's a good chart for this http://webpages.charter.net/edfred/LoggingPIC.pdf

You could even log the Arrow time as PIC, as you are class & category rated. It doesn't say anything about being endorsed in order to log PIC time.
 
You can log all that time PIC. I logged all my IFR training including actual, and all my complex/high performance time while doing my commercial training.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
You could even log the Arrow time as PIC, as you are class & category rated. It doesn't say anything about being endorsed in order to log PIC time.
Click to expand...

According to the chart you put up, I'd have to be rated for the aircraft. I wouldn't be appropriately rated for an Arrow until I got my complex endorsement. Does this mean that I can log it as PIC since I'm flying, and my flight instructor is ACTING PIC because he has the endorsement?
 
MNFlyboy said:
According to the chart you put up, I'd have to be rated for the aircraft. I wouldn't be appropriately rated for an Arrow until I got my complex endorsement. Does this mean that I can log it as PIC since I'm flying, and my flight instructor is ACTING PIC because he has the endorsement?
Click to expand...

It says rated in class and category, not endorsed.

Class=Airplane
Category=Single Engine land

Ratings & Endorsements (Instrument rating, complex/high performance/tailwheel/high altitude endorsements) don't apply to logging PIC, but they apply to acting as PIC. Since you didn't have the complex endorsement, obviously your CFI was acting as PIC on those flights. You were manipulating the controls, correct? Log PIC on the sole manipulator clause.

I've got an hour of tailwheel PIC time, but yet I have no tailwheel endorsement.
 
I don't really see the value of logging PIC time while your also getting dual given. How much extra PIC time will that really give you, a hundred maybe 150 hours? If you try to apply to an airline using Airline Apps., its not going to put down that any dual given time was also PIC anyway. Just doesn't seem worth it.
 
True, but for some insurance providers and employers, they wanna know PIC time, and I'm just trying to see how much it all adds up to really.


Thanks for the discussion!
 
ml_wd said:
I don't really see the value of logging PIC time while your also getting dual given. How much extra PIC time will that really give you, a hundred maybe 150 hours? If you try to apply to an airline using Airline Apps., its not going to put down that any dual given time was also PIC anyway. Just doesn't seem worth it.
Click to expand...

That 100 hours could make a difference when trying to be insured. Very worth it, I think 100 hours of PIC time is around $10k... so 10k is quite a bit..
 
Log it all as PIC!

And keep a Second log book going on the side (you're going to have to when applying anyways), past your initial PPL stuff, keep it neat and out of the hands of your instructor!
 
ml_wd said:
A ten thousand dollar difference of insurance premium?
Click to expand...

No. If you ever fly outside of UND you'll realize that most companies have requirements for aircraft rental, often due to their insurance. 100 hours of PIC will make a difference when you're trying to rent an aircraft elsewhere.

Aircraft rental $100/hr x 100hrs = $10000.

Fixing your logbook that UND tries to control = priceless...? :pirate:
 
yeah one of the lead instructors at UND tried to tell me i couldnt log PIC time in the super D because i didnt have my tailwheel endorsement....

i was like "yeah ok" then when he walked off just wrote it in myself.
 
ml_wd said:
Or... You could just let someone pay you to get 100 more PIC.

A job x 100 hours = money in your pocket.
Click to expand...

Sure. Why don't you find this guy a job to get him the 100 PIC hours. But first, you should let him claim the 100 PIC hours that he paid for that any other flight school on the face of the earth would log as PIC. As stated previously, logging PIC and acting PIC are not the same thing. See CFR Title 14 61.51.
 
Thunder-Robo said:
And keep a Second log book going on the side (you're going to have to when applying anyways), past your initial PPL stuff, keep it neat and out of the hands of your instructor!
Click to expand...

So the two log books I have now that have scribbles and corrections and all sorts of addendums is NOT the one I should give to a prospective employer??

And yes, I would like a job that would pay me for 100hrs PIC, and more!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top