Jumpseating and professional courtesy

[Gonzo]

Good point here...

I think the attitude of "screw the company" by whom you are employed is an issue however.

With me it is not so much screw the company as much as wanting to help a pilot get home. There are some pilots at my company that have had 3-4 base in the last year. So if it comes down to the company or a fellow pilot I have a CC with the company he doesn't have one with his wife and kids.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Come on now. Obviously the intent was to go both ways, but you would never win the battle if you didn't set the priority as getting to work over getting home.

We didn't "win the battle" by convincing management that we're wonderful guys that want to get work on time, we won the battle by giving up something else to get it. Probably a little pay here, or a work rule there. That's how negotiations work. You don't get things by making sound arguments, you get them by exerting leverage and making trades.

 

[granlistillo]

Not sure why people think that it was only meant to go one way. The point of negotiating the jumpseat was for general purposes, not just to get people to work. It's a negotiated benefit meant to help pilots in whatever way they want to use it, provided it isn't for business purposes.

I didn't realize that. Never used it before in this way, but I guess if this is correct a ferry pilot should only be non rev status. Where is this rule written? Just curious.

 

[derg]

1. Always expect a fed to be there so leave yourself a backup.
2. Strive to fly "online" on your own airline.
3. Be ready for absolutely anything.
4. Everything goes into the "karma bank". Both negative and positive deposits are interest-bearing.

Those are pretty much the four self-made rules that have served me well for almost 15 years of commuting.

 

[JoelT]

1. Always expect a fed to be there so leave yourself a backup.
2. Strive to fly "online" on your own airline.
3. Be ready for absolutely anything.
4. Everything goes into the "karma bank". Both negative and positive deposits are interest-bearing.

Those are pretty much the four self-made rules that have served me well for almost 15 years of commuting.

And one more that I try to always adhere to as it greatly decreases my stress level:

5. NEVER run for a commute (unless it is the last flight home for the day).

I have intentionally missed commutes before just because I was chatting with a buddy I hadn't seen in a while, wanted to get on the less full flight or, waited it out for first class just for the free booze.

 

[derg]

Word.

I can be quite the pilot lounge chatterbox, myself!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I didn't realize that. Never used it before in this way, but I guess if this is correct a ferry pilot should only be non rev status. Where is this rule written? Just curious.

What it really means is that you can't reposition for company business purposes via the jumpseat. The purpose is making sure that you aren't getting a free ride on a competitor in order to deadhead. For example, AirTran has been repositioning crews from Las Vegas to Seattle lately. We don't have flights on that route, though, so they have to buy full-fare tickets on Alaska. If they asked a pilot to jumpseat to get to Seattle, that wouldn't be allowed.

A pilot jumpseating to do a ferry flight on his own time is a bit different, and I've never heard anyone complain about that.

Some airlines have this written in their FOMs, but at most places it's just an unwritten rule that's been passed down since the dawn of jumpseating privileges. Companies that break this rule usually get their jumpseat agreements revoked.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

On my own metal - I have no problem pulling the seniority card to get on an airplane *if I need to get somewhere* and it's important (like work, or going home).

However, I have, on OAL metal (Delta), given up my "prioritized" spot as a DCI pilot to an OAL pilot (AirTran) who I could have bumped, because this pilot was trying to go home, and I was just going to visit my friend for the weekend.

Yup, that's what I do.

If I'm going to bump somebody and I see them hanging out at the gate I'll go talk to them. We'll figure out who needs to be there first, whether there's other options for us, whether someone is just going for the heck of it or if they're going to work. If someone has a better reason than I do for going then I'll let them go ahead of me.

Some people have a real hardon for seniority/priority. It makes them feel important. I'd rather help somebody out if it doesn't end up hosing me.

I've let a republic guy go ahead of me because he was sick and was trying to get home, let a DL guy ahead of me because he was working a trip and I was doing reserve with a 2nd flight option that would get me there just in time. Etc.

As a commuter from a smaller city you'll run into the same people again and again.

 

[bike21]

1. Always expect a fed to be there so leave yourself a backup.
2. Strive to fly "online" on your own airline.
3. Be ready for absolutely anything.
4. Everything goes into the "karma bank". Both negative and positive deposits are interest-bearing.

Those are pretty much the four self-made rules that have served me well for almost 15 years of commuting.

I like these, especially the 'karma bank'. I've given up the jumpseat and had the jumpseat given up for me on several occasions. Even had a very senior UAL captain nearly let me have the jumpseat one day since I was going to work and he wasn't. Turns out we both got seats last minute anyway, but that was quite nice of him and I won't forget that anytime soon.

Certainly no shortage of opinions here, but I lean toward letting the guy get to work first & foremost. I agree that home is more important, but often home can wait a bit longer and work cannot. I also think it can be quite situational as well, one day I was considering giving up the j/s to an offline guy but turns out he was a major jerk (long story) and I gave it no further thought.

5. NEVER run for a commute (unless it is the last flight home for the day).

I like this one too. For some reason I think it is rather unprofessional to see a pilot running in uniform. I have done the uber fast walk on many occasions, but do my best not to run unless it is indeed the last flight of the night.

 

[kellwolf]

1. Always expect a fed to be there so leave yourself a backup.
2. Strive to fly "online" on your own airline.
3. Be ready for absolutely anything.
4. Everything goes into the "karma bank". Both negative and positive deposits are interest-bearing.

Those are pretty much the four self-made rules that have served me well for almost 15 years of commuting.

Eh, #2 is actually hit or miss, unless you've got a CA that'll stick up for you. We can get bumped off our own metal by mainline guys.

 

[bike21]

As a commuter from a smaller city you'll run into the same people again and again.

Big cities too! A couple of weeks ago I let a Mesa FO who I see quite a bit have the jump on UAL when I had priority as I had checked in much earlier. I was chatting with a nice lady who had just returned from Nepal and didn't realize boarding was wrapping up. So I get down there and find him already settled in the jump. I hate kicking people out of the jump when they are already there, so I said no worries and caught the next one an hour later. The UAL capt was literally astonished I let him have it, it was kind of comical.

 

[MikeD]

That does not mean, however that I feel that I should shirk my responsibilities as a professional. Remember, when you don't make it to work, the company's respose will be to get a reserve. It does nothing to hurt the airlines bottom line. You are only making it difficult on a fellow employee.

Agree. The company isn't taking the hit, another employee will likely be.

Managements get the unions that they deserve.

Unfortunately, the reverse is also true; unions get the management they deserve.

And the self-licking ice cream cone continues round and round.......

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Unfortunately, the reverse is also true; unions get the management they deserve.

Not really. There is no chicken-or-egg circle in this, because the company always has to exist first, and the union only shows up when management does something to make the employees feel screwed. In order for a union to even be at a company, that means that at some point, management did something to make the employees feel it was necessary. So, like I said, managements get the unions they deserve. The reserve isn't really true at all.

 

[MikeD]

Not really. There is no chicken-or-egg circle in this, because the company always has to exist first, and the union only shows up when management does something to make the employees feel screwed. In order for a union to even be at a company, that means that at some point, management did something to make the employees feel it was necessary. So, like I said, managements get the unions they deserve. The reserve isn't really true at all.

The thing of it is though, that at any company, union personnel change over time, as does management personnel. With this change comes different ways of doing business from both sides. But does the underlying animosity ever change? It seems not to, hence the round and round of it all (from both sides) in my contention.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The thing of it is though, that at any company, union personnel change over time, as does management personnel. With this change comes different ways of doing business from both sides. But does the underlying animosity ever change? It seems not to, hence the round and round of it all (from both sides) in my contention.

My experience has been that most union reps, even the militant hard-liners, come into office hoping to be able to forge some sort of working relationship with management. What inevitably happens, though, is that management throws it back in their faces, and then the animosity starts.

You also have to ask yourself, if someone that has animosity towards management is elected, why was that person elected by his peers? It's almost certainly because the employees that elected him feel that management is screwing them over, and they want a hard-liner to teach the company a lesson. Militants don't get elected for no reason. It's almost always because the company did something to deserve it.

I always point to SWAPA as an example of how this is supposed to work. For decades, SWAPA has functioned very well with management, because management hasn't done anything to cause the pilot group to get pissed off and elect militant reps. You can bet, though, that if management changes their attitude to one of hostility, the pilots will respond by electing more militant reps that will take an equally hostile posture towards the company.

It all starts with the company. Hard-liners don't get elected for no reason. They get elected because management did something to deserve it.

 

[MikeD]

My experience has been that most union reps, even the militant hard-liners, come into office hoping to be able to forge some sort of working relationship with management. What inevitably happens, though, is that management throws it back in their faces, and then the animosity starts.

You also have to ask yourself, if someone that has animosity towards management is elected, why was that person elected by his peers? It's almost certainly because the employees that elected him feel that management is screwing them over, and they want a hard-liner to teach the company a lesson. Militants don't get elected for no reason. It's almost always because the company did something to deserve it.

I always point to SWAPA as an example of how this is supposed to work. For decades, SWAPA has functioned very well with management, because management hasn't done anything to cause the pilot group to get pissed off and elect militant reps. You can bet, though, that if management changes their attitude to one of hostility, the pilots will respond by electing more militant reps that will take an equally hostile posture towards the company.

It all starts with the company. Hard-liners don't get elected for no reason. They get elected because management did something to deserve it.

Agree. Since times do change, the people change with it...in both ways. Hardliners will get elected when the pilot group sees fit, and non-hardliners get voted in, in the same way if it's felt the hard line is no longer needed. And the ebb and flow will continue. I think too that management moves in the same way, since both groups realistically need the other, in order for the company to survive.

 

[taildragger173]

Im a firm believer in karma. I've given up my jumpseat to someone who had to be at work earlier than I had. I had another option to get to work; he did not. The captain on that flight told me I was a good person and not to leave until the aircraft door was closed. I got on the next flight without a problem. Two weeks ago I was commuting to work and there was another jumpseater (both of us were offline) who was trying to go home. We both ended up with seats but the other guy said I could have the seat since I needed to get to work. You get what you give. Were all in this together. You never know how a good action on your part will benifit you later on. Its all about karma.

 

[MikeD]

Im a firm believer in karma. I've given up my jumpseat to someone who had to be at work earlier than I had. I had another option to get to work; he did not. The captain on that flight told me I was a good person and not to leave until the aircraft door was closed. I got on the next flight without a problem. Two weeks ago I was commuting to work and there was another jumpseater (both of us were offline) who was trying to go home. We both ended up with seats but the other guy said I could have the seat since I needed to get to work. You get what you give. Were all in this together. You never know how a good action on your part will benifit you later on. Its all about karma.

Agree. Thats the etiquette I'd been brought up with in my brief JS time long ago.

 

[bike21]

Im a firm believer in karma. I've given up my jumpseat to someone who had to be at work earlier than I had. I had another option to get to work; he did not. The captain on that flight told me I was a good person and not to leave until the aircraft door was closed. I got on the next flight without a problem. Two weeks ago I was commuting to work and there was another jumpseater (both of us were offline) who was trying to go home. We both ended up with seats but the other guy said I could have the seat since I needed to get to work. You get what you give. Were all in this together. You never know how a good action on your part will benifit you later on. Its all about karma.

Yep.

 

[Seggy]

Eh, #2 is actually hit or miss, unless you've got a CA that'll stick up for you. We can get bumped off our own metal by mainline guys.

WTF?