History XVIII/Gunther Rall

Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
That is a cool tidbit of obscure trivia. :)

How many victories did it take to qualify for the medal?





Finally! Now we are getting somewhere... :D

So... how does Richthofen tie in with the WWII aces?
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JG 2 is the only thing that comes to mind.
 
Re: Gunther Rall

ctab5060X said:
Gunther Rall is number 3 on the list of highest scoring aces. Only Hartmann and Barkhorn had more than Rall and both of them had in excess of 300 confirmed victories.

Interesting bit of trivia though... Hartmann, Barkhorn, and Rall all flew in the famous Jaddgeschwader 52 with the majority of kills for all three pilots coming on the Eastern Front primarily against Soviet aircraft.

Oddly enough, the extraordinary number of kills by JG 52 are often claimed as being over inflated, but upon further scrutinty the kills of JG 52 (and the Luftwaffe as a whole) stand up better than any other nations involved in World War II.

I managed to find this on Luftwaffe rules of confirmation.
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That's the nature of the beast in aerial warfare, rarely did pilots have the total they claimed...the higher scorers that is. John B Lundstrom did the definite work of early aerial combat scores by Navy and Marine pilots from Feb 42 to Dec 42. For example, the Marines claimed around 360 kills from Aug-Dec 42 but actually scored something around 175 or so. The famous Flying Tigers claimed 296 kills vs an actuall 115-120. The Germans were very good in their claims but not precise. The Japanese were the worst, always overclaiming. An example is the opening air battle of Midway, over the island. Around 21 Wildcat's and Buffalo's (15 and 6) took off with 15 being shot down (13 buffalo and 2 wildcats) but the Japanese claimed 41!!
 
Re: Gunther Rall

bunk22 said:
That's the nature of the beast in aerial warfare, rarely did pilots have the total they claimed...the higher scorers that is. John B Lundstrom did the definite work of early aerial combat scores by Navy and Marine pilots from Feb 42 to Dec 42. For example, the Marines claimed around 360 kills from Aug-Dec 42 but actually scored something around 175 or so. The famous Flying Tigers claimed 296 kills vs an actuall 115-120. The Germans were very good in their claims but not precise. The Japanese were the worst, always overclaiming. An example is the opening air battle of Midway, over the island. Around 21 Wildcat's and Buffalo's (15 and 6) took off with 15 being shot down (13 buffalo and 2 wildcats) but the Japanese claimed 41!!
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Precise enough to send observers out with Hartmann when his kills started to really stack up. In comparison with the other nations involved in WWII, Germany was the most accurate when it came to total victories. They were impartial and inflexible... "no witness - no kill".
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
Jaw dropping numbers until you see the reality of it all.

  • Eric Hartmann - 352 total victories... 345 were against Soviet aircraft, only 260 against fighters (that leaves 7 against Western Allied aircraft).
  • Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 total victories... all against Soviet aircraft. Failed to add to his tally when he transfered to the Western Front flying the 262.
  • Gunther Rall - 275 total victories... 272 against Soviet aircraft, 241 of which were fighters (that leaves 3 against Western Allied aircraft).
  • Otto Kittel - 267 total victories... all against Soviet aircraft.
  • Walter Nowotny - 258 total victories... 255 against Soviet aircraft (that leaves 3 against Western Allied aircraft.
That is only Germany's top 5 aces of the war.
  • 1453 total victories
  • 1440 against Soviet aircraft... 13 against Western Allied aircraft. That is a phenomenal 99% Soviet aircraft.
Below the top 5 of Germany's aces, you start to find other high scoring pilots, (over 200 victories), but again... the majority of victories came on the Eastern Front, not the Western Front.

Highest scoring German ace against Western Allied aircraft: Hans-Joachim Marseille with 158 total victories... all but 7 of which were against Western Allied aircraft.

Now... it is amazing that 2 Bf 109s could tangle with a dozen P-51s and emerge victorious, but it is not nearly as common as one would think or led to believe. If it were a common occurance, then that would hint toward German air superiority in Western Europe during the last years of the war... and that simply wasn't the case.




Now... back on track... who is the person I posted a picture of and why is he important... hint VERY important to the names listed in this post?
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My guess is take away 1/3 of those victories and that's their actual score. That's the nature of aerial warfare in WWII.
 
Re: Gunther Rall

ctab5060X said:
Precise enough to send observers out with Hartmann when his kills started to really stack up. In comparison with the other nations involved in WWII, Germany was the most accurate when it came to total victories. They were impartial and inflexible... "no witness - no kill".
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We supposedly had that too though not always applied. I've already read a few instances where the Germans over claimed by quite a bit. There is no doubt in my mind Eric Hartman does not have 352 kills....what is the actual score, don't know but like many aces, his score is most likely lower. I've read his book (Hartman's) and the last half of his kills are not verified...besides, how difficult is it to send an observer over enemy lines (when that was the case) to find wreckage at the exact are where it may crashed? I know of day where Hartman claims 4 P-51 Mustangs and he was the only German to claim victories that day, in that area. We lost 3 P-51's to Me-109's so those 3 are most definitely his. A 75% accuracy rate on this day. With 352, even with 75% accuracy, he is down quite a bit from that total. Then again, maybe a probably didn't make it back.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

bunk22 said:
My guess is take away 1/3 of those victories and that's their actual score. That's the nature of aerial warfare in WWII.
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Actually... and I pointed this out in the Gunther Rall thread, the Germans were the most accurate of any of the nations participating in WWII. If anything, the numbers might be a little low as "no witness - no kill". Remember all those numbers are CONFIRMED kills.

Same thing was rampant during WWI. No witness - no kill (on both sides of the front).

The Luftwaffe had a very stringent approval process for the confirmation of aerial victories.

  • Without a witness, a Luftwaffe fighter pilot had no chance to have his victory claim confirmed. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond group level.
  • The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film or by at least one other human witness. The witness could be the German pilot's wingman, squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter.
  • There was no possibility, as with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claiming officer was a gentleman and a man of his word. The German rule was simply "no witness – no kill."
  • The German system was impartial, inflexible, and far less error-prone than either the British or American procedures. German fighter pilots had to wait several months, a year, or sometimes even longer for a kill confirmation to reach them from the German High Command.
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Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
JG 2 lasted 4 months during WWII.

Where did Richthofen go after recieving his Orden Pour le Mérite in January of 1917?
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He commanded Jasta 11, which included Ernst Udet. Jasta 11 was part of JG 1, which Hermann Goering commanded at the end of the war after Richthofen's death.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
Actually... and I pointed this out in the Gunther Rall thread, the Germans were the most accurate of any of the nations participating in WWII. If anything, the numbers might be a little low as "no witness - no kill". Remember all those numbers are CONFIRMED kills.

Same thing was rampant during WWI. No witness - no kill (on both sides of the front).
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Keep in mind too, that the actual number of kills against US/RAF, etc, aircraft were not the total score. A number of the kills by the very high scorers were accomplished against eastern-front fodder (ie- Russian planes) prior to major engagements on the western front.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
Actually... and I pointed this out in the Gunther Rall thread, the Germans were the most accurate of any of the nations participating in WWII. If anything, the numbers might be a little low as "no witness - no kill". Remember all those numbers are CONFIRMED kills.

Same thing was rampant during WWI. No witness - no kill (on both sides of the front).
Click to expand...

Sorry but not all of those kills were confirmed. Just like I mentioned in another thread, Hartman claimed 4 P-51's on a certain date and we actually lost 3....a damn good score but only 75% accurate. A new book on the Red Baron details every one of his claimed kills and guess what, he didn't have 80. Many (well not many but I think it was around 12 or so) of his victims made it back. Nature of the beast. Takes nothing away from their achievement but it is what is.
 
Re: Gunther Rall

bunk22 said:
We supposedly had that too though not always applied. I've already read a few instances where the Germans over claimed by quite a bit. There is no doubt in my mind Eric Hartman does not have 352 kills....what is the actual score, don't know but like many aces, his score is most likely lower. I've read his book (Hartman's) and the last half of his kills are not verified...besides, how difficult is it to send an observer over enemy lines (when that was the case) to find wreckage at the exact are where it may crashed? I know of day where Hartman claims 4 P-51 Mustangs and he was the only German to claim victories that day, in that area. We lost 3 P-51's to Me-109's so those 3 are most definitely his. A 75% accuracy rate on this day. With 352, even with 75% accuracy, he is down quite a bit from that total. Then again, maybe a probably didn't make it back.
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Like I mentioned in the other thread, I believe most were against eastern-front fodder opponents prior to the major western engagements.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

bunk22 said:
Sorry but not all of those kills were confirmed. Just like I mentioned in another thread, Hartman claimed 4 P-51's on a certain date and we actually lost 3....a damn good score but only 75% accurate. A new book on the Red Baron details every one of his claimed kills and guess what, he didn't have 80. Many of his victims made it back. Nature of the beast. Takes nothing away from their achievement but it is what is.
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If you are shot down and land behind your own lines (but not at the aerodrome), are you still shot down?
 
Re: Gunther Rall

MikeD said:
Like I mentioned in the other thread, I believe most were against eastern-front fodder opponents prior to the major western engagements.
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And Russian aircraft go down easier? Japanese aircraft went down quite easy too (Zekes, Kates, Vals, etc) but overclaiming was just as easy. Take George Wrenn, claimed 5 Kates in one battle....he actually only got two. Planes were seen going down burning, fire and smoke, but the pilots were able to make it back. The Germans were the most accurate but still prone to errors, however slight.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
If you are shot down and land behind your own lines (but not at the aerodrome), are you still shot down?
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Many victims made it back? As in, didn't have to bail out and otherwise recovered their aircraft successfully?

OR, is that meant to mean that the guys parachuted out, but either were rescued or evaded back to friendly lines? Either way, that's a shoot down IMO.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
If you are shot down and land behind your own lines (but not at the aerodrome), are you still shot down?
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You don't get it, these victims didn't crash or were forced down, they landed back at their homefield or another allied field and thus can't be considered a kill. Now if a plane makes it back but is not airworthy, is that a kill? Grey area I would think. Such as with the first air battle of the 343rd Kokutai in March of 45. The Japanese employed their N1K2 George fighter against US Hellats and Corsairs. End result was 15 Georges shot down versus 8 US but with another 5 Hellcats/Corsairs written off...dumped overboard being so badly damaged. So the end result was almost even, 15 to 13. Are those 5 that made it back kills? I don't know.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

MikeD said:
Many victims made it back? As in, didn't have to bail out and otherwise recovered their aircraft successfully?

OR, is that meant to mean that the guys parachuted out, but either were rescued or evaded back to friendly lines? Either way, that's a shoot down IMO.
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Exactly.

Richthofen was technically shot down twice, only the second time was the killer.

Even though Richthofen survived the head wound and fought again (quite sucessfully), Cunnell was still credited with a victory.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
Exactly.

Richthofen was technically shot down twice, only the second time was the killer.

Even though Richthofen survived the head wound and fought again (quite sucessfully), Cunnell was still credited with a victory.
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Too bad that's not the case with what I mentioned though. Like I said, the pilots were claimed as shot down but FLEW their aircraft back home. Not a kill. Hartman did not shoot down 4 P-51's that day and I'm not so sure his other 3 claimed P-51 kills can be verified either (he claimed 7 total as I recall). By that alone, he doesn't have 352 actual kills, he now has 351 kills.
 
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