CJC Growth

kellwolf said:
Makes me kinda wonder if management WANTS the 9E pilots to strike so they can close the doors on 9E and magically have CRJs at 9L......
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No kidding! Forget dual qualification... I can see them wanting a pilot to be qualified on the Saab, the Q, 200, and 900! :D

kellwolf said:
They're just doing a lot of REALLY odd stuff in negotiations right now and no one can figure out why.
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Yeah they are. Any new word other than the email we got earlier this week?


p.s. You going to be at the meeting tomorrow night?
 
ctab5060X said:
Yeah they are. Any new word other than the email we got earlier this week?
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Nothing new. Had meetings with the company. They came our way on some minor things with dual qual, but we're still far apart on the $$$ issues. NMB hasn't said anything since we left Washington a couple of weeks ago. Anything anyone says about a "release deadline" or anything is either misinformed or making it up.

p.s. You going to be at the meeting tomorrow night?
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Yep. Already got three proxy forms, too. This is gonna be a friggin blood bath.

As for the flying, if Pinnacle folds, it ceases to be struck work. Therefore, it can go to anyone and ALPA doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Honestly, the chance that manglement WANTS 9E to fold is what scares me the most.
 
kellwolf said:
Nothing new. Had meetings with the company. They came our way on some minor things with dual qual, but we're still far apart on the $$$ issues. NMB hasn't said anything since we left Washington a couple of weeks ago. Anything anyone says about a "release deadline" or anything is either misinformed or making it up.
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That is what I thought.


kellwolf said:
Yep. Already got three proxy forms, too. This is gonna be a friggin blood bath.
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Same here. And it will be a blood bath.

I just hope it is done and over with fairly quick (at least the 2 hours scheduled). Have to fly that night and don't want to be marked late. :banghead:
 
FLflyer said:
Especially when they'll fly a 70-seat airplane for less pay than we fly a 50-seater...I know I won't be too popular on this board with all the Colganites on here, but Colgan is a cancer on our industry. Flame away, but it's true.
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In its current form you're right. In fact before the drive, which I heavily supported, I thought of Colgan type airlines as a bacterial infection. That being said, I think that the airframe itself has a lot to do with the growth. If XJT had 400's they would also be growing. If memory serves, XJT management (not a reflection on the pilots at all) chose not to pursue turbo props.

Its just unfortunate, but also obvious why, investers would seek out a company without a union like colgan to buy these planes for.

Industry wide we need to focus on all the small airlines that are not unionized and get a union on property so that this maneuver will not happen again.
 
sherpa said:
In its current form you're right. In fact before the drive, which I heavily supported, I thought of Colgan type airlines as a bacterial infection. That being said, I think that the airframe itself has a lot to do with the growth. If XJT had 400's they would also be growing. If memory serves, XJT management (not a reflection on the pilots at all) chose not to pursue turbo props.
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That is because XJT could not make money with only 15 planes. The way XJT is ran is very different then the way Colgan is ran.
 
Just got back from recurrent ground at HEF jsut thought I'd share some tidbits of info they gave us.

1. Class of 4 saab upgrades starting next week with more "by the end of the year"
2. Class of 10 new Saab FO's on august 11th with another 14 or so soon after.
3. They got a request from ALPA to hire furloughed 121 guys first which they have been doing. They got over 1700 applications so far and they have some very experienced guys coming on. They also hired or are hiring a few ex Colgan guys who wanted to come back after furlough from other carriers. Also thought I heard about a United guy or two but not sure. They were not sure if they were being asked to resign seniority.
4. Really trying hire guys with time (like 2000tt plus)so they do not run into the uprade trap they got into before when they did not have enough experienced guys to upgrade. Also said that street captains are a thing of ther past as well as upgrading out of seniority.
5. All FO's will have 2 sim events per year. One being a PC and the other being a TP which is a training event only.
6. New 3 day CRM course being developed in conjunction with CAL program that will be mandatory each year. First classes expected to be in JAN
7. 15 New Q's they are planning delivery for AUG 10 of which 2 will go to EWR and the rest to IAH. 5.5 Crews per a/c
8. Also way in the distance they are looking at a rreplacement aircraft for the SAAB. CAL wants a 50 seater in the IAH market because they do very well with it. Rumored to be considering ATR's but more likely Q300.

They cannot fix this place ovenight we all know that. But things are definatley moving in the right direction.
 
ajdwings said:
CAL wants a 50 seater in the IAH market because they do very well with it. Rumored to be considering ATR's but more likely Q300.
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Now THIS is what worries me. Rather than going for more 50 seat jet flying, they'll get older TPs and ship them over to Colgan while 9E dies a SLLLOOOOOWWWW death. I can see them bidding on the CHQ flying and going with TPs instead of CRJs. Basically, they WOULD be growing Colgan at the expense of Pinnacle. Why not give Colgan the Q400s and 9E the 50 seat flying not specified yet? Oh yeah, we're too expensive.....which is sad.
 
Baronman said:
I'm trying to search but recently there was a diagram maybe in the Wall Street Journal showing costs associated with most regional carriers. I think it may have been posted here at Jetcareers.

In any case Colgan was at or near the bottom, being the cheapest...We're talking the cost of training, paying, healthcare etc..

So don't just look at salaries and assume one pilot makes $10/hr more so that's the difference. We're talking complex contracts, health care costs and training.
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Well, the training was included in the cost of the Q's. When you really break it down, the cost of the crews really is one of the smallest expenses.

Acars printer - $34,000
Hyd. pumps - $330,000
EFIS screen - $60,000

Crap, we went though over $1,500,000.00 in brakes during the first year I heard.

matching an aditional 5-7% on a 401k isn't that much when you look at the daily operational costs.

in a 1 hour flight we save nearly $1500 on fuel compared to an emb. 145, which is 3 - 5 times the savings of those crew costs.
 
ajdwings said:
Just got back from recurrent ground at HEF jsut thought I'd share some tidbits of info they gave us.

1. Class of 4 saab upgrades starting next week with more "by the end of the year"
2. Class of 10 new Saab FO's on august 11th with another 14 or so soon after.
3. They got a request from ALPA to hire furloughed 121 guys first which they have been doing. They got over 1700 applications so far and they have some very experienced guys coming on. They also hired or are hiring a few ex Colgan guys who wanted to come back after furlough from other carriers. Also thought I heard about a United guy or two but not sure. They were not sure if they were being asked to resign seniority.
4. Really trying hire guys with time (like 2000tt plus)so they do not run into the uprade trap they got into before when they did not have enough experienced guys to upgrade. Also said that street captains are a thing of ther past as well as upgrading out of seniority.
5. All FO's will have 2 sim events per year. One being a PC and the other being a TP which is a training event only.
6. New 3 day CRM course being developed in conjunction with CAL program that will be mandatory each year. First classes expected to be in JAN
7. 15 New Q's they are planning delivery for AUG 10 of which 2 will go to EWR and the rest to IAH. 5.5 Crews per a/c
8. Also way in the distance they are looking at a rreplacement aircraft for the SAAB. CAL wants a 50 seater in the IAH market because they do very well with it. Rumored to be considering ATR's but more likely Q300.

They cannot fix this place ovenight we all know that. But things are definatley moving in the right direction.
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Only 4 upgrades? What , we are so understaffed as it is at my base.

And hiring guys from other part 121 airlines to stop from having the upgrade issue? Whats going to happen when they get recalled? Or when they realize what a hole it is and quit?
 
I had heard that it was roughly the same burn, but since it hauls an extra 24 seats around for free, thats where the money is. 2 Q flights = 3 ERJ flights. 3500 lbs is just over 500 gallons, which based on a few years of fueling planes seemed to be about the burn of a one hour flight on an RJ.
 
Oops just saw seggys post. I'd say 1200 per side is a bit low. I normally see around 1400 per side to 1450 per side. I'd say average burn at cruise is around 2800 - 2900 lbs per hour total.
 
So you say a Q burns 2500 pph-ish, plus that 3500 pph savings you claim would mean that an RJ burns 6000 pph. I guarantee you that number is WAY high. Especially considering you can toss 7000 lbs on an ERJ and make it to EWR (over an hour) with reserves etc.
 
Snuggle said:
Oops just saw seggys post. I'd say 1200 per side is a bit low. I normally see around 1400 per side to 1450 per side. I'd say average burn at cruise is around 2800 - 2900 lbs per hour total.
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The ERJ burns 3000lbs in cruise.
 
Everything I've read says the Q fuel burns are similar, just slightly better then the 50 seat RJ's. It's just that it carries 74 people vs 50.
 
So on a seat mile basis one Q flight (because of the extra 24 seats) saves 1500 pph (half of an RJs burn), plus another 100-200 pph (the actual burn difference) for a total of 1600-1700 pph (almost 250 gph). Bulk price on jet fuel is a bit over $3/gal right now for a fuel savings of $750 on a seat mile basis for every Q flight (assuming that 2 Q's replace 3 50 seat RJs), not the $3500 that TnT claimed.
 
It depends on altitude, but on a 1 hour trip in the mid 20s the 700 burns about 3500 total so unless ya'll are hiding a REALLY big rubber band in the Q, I doubt it's 3500 less.

Now, get me up to 410 and I can burn about 2400 an hour doing .81.
 
As far as the 50 seat RJ goes average block fuel consumption in the NE is around 2900#/hr. So that would mean the Q400 burns -600#/hr of fuel. That's a pretty neat trick.

Keep in mind the amount of seats don't really matter any more. To fill them up you have to cut fares.

Customers hate props more than the 50 seat RJ. They are noisy, slow, fly low, don't have jetways, infer the "commuter" image, etc.
 
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