Unemployed

[WacoFan]

Re: Unemployeed

Doug: I started flying in 1986, thank you. Professional flying wasn't even an option for me until the visual acuity standards changed in 1993/94. I didn't finish my private ticket until 2002, and having an aversion to the huge training loans some here are burdened with, I pretty much trained/flew at a pace that my finances would allow. Pretty much just as you advocate to virtually everyone on here. But that's really not germane to the discussion. If I'm not mistaken, you had your ERAU flight training and education funded by a relative, or an inheritance or something, correct? You have about 40% fewer hours of turbine PIC time than your present employer normally requires of applicants, correct? You have never missed a hiring wave or been furloughed, correct? That's what I'm talking about when I say you've had it pretty easy. Other than the post-9/11 pay cuts you suffered, I have yet to read of any hardships you've endured in your career. If I'm missing something, by all means, enlighten me.

Ben: If I'd had the cash, I'd have gotten my CFI ticket last fall. As it is, I don't have the estimated $1600 it would take. And it's not that I've had anything against being a CFI, I've just always been of the opinion that low-time pilots don't have an experience base from which to really teach anything but how to pass the checkride, and being that sort of instructor has no appeal for me. A thousand hours later, I'm at the point where I feel I have a sufficient experience base from which to actually teach something beyond the PTS.

Alex: several years ago, you gave the impression that you logged several hundred hours of multiengine and/or turbine experience riding right seat with your mother. Either I'm mistaken about that, or you were lying then, or you're lying now. If I'm mistaken, I apologize. Now, I don't know about you, but even the 60 hrs of multiengine time you now claim--worth roughly $12,000---would make a significant difference in my employability/insurability right now. I have only the 10 hrs it took to earn my multi rating, and I have yet to come across an employer who will look at anyone with less than 25 hrs of twin time.

In any event, my point is that there are many, many pilots in the same predicament (or worse) as Alex right now. Sure, it's okay to vent about it and seek community support, but do so with the knowledge that you're hardly the only one. All I seem to read around here is sympathy for furloughees, which is fine, but let's keep in mind that for every guy furloughed, things just got that much worse for those of us not even on a seniority list someplace yet.

Please take this constructively.

It really doesn't matter who got a perceived break and who didn't because it isn't a zero-sum game. If Doug got his relative to either fund his education, or die and leave an inheritance to fund his education it is irrelevant to your situation. It isn't like if Doug hadn't gotten that break, you would have. If CK hadn't gotten that 60 hrs, or even several hundred hours, it isn't like you would have. If Doug got hired because of a racial preference because he met the time AND was black...it isn't like you would have. Try to celebrate peoples good fortune or accomplishment of goals instead of comparing the "easy" road they had (which you don't really know unless you walked in their shoes) to your own trail of tears - you will be happier.

I could say that Doug, Mike (MJG), CK, and YOU all have a much easier road than me and that I have been screwed by the fates because none of you went deaf as you were embarking on your goals. You guys REALLY screwed me...maybe I should be bitter about that. Instead, I did what I could do, and now, because of cochlear implants, maybe I can actually fly again (but, I missed the hiring boom...and 121 jobs are a steaming pile now...and I hate airport food...and fat NWA chicks want to wear the red-dress...Somebody call me a Waaaambulance!). Seriously, you make your own breaks dude. Personally, I would have found a way to get $1,600 bucks for the CFI - it isn't THAT much scratch that you can't pick it up if you are willing to work hard.

Your couple of posts are wrong on several levels:

1. Directly wrong: It probably doesn't make sense to call out the owner of the site, imply that he has had an easy ride, and also imply that he was a product of affirmative action. From a purely "is this a bright thing to do or not" it is an epic fail. Sometimes, even if you think something, it is better to not voice your opinion...particularly if it is an opinion regarding someones career path that you think you know, but didn't experience first-hand.
2. Directly wrong: Lurkers and active users are potentially in a position to hire people at some point. To be blunt your attitude sucks. Who would want that in a company or a cockpit.
3. Directly wrong: Assuming that your lack of progress is due to something other than you, and that others greater progress is due to "luck", "timing" or something other than "they are obviously better than me at certain things...what can I learn from this..."
4. Secondarily Wrong: If people such as CK, or Doug, or anyone are obviously better at marketing themselves than you, perhaps you should make sure you network with THEM so that you can live off the scraps that they don't take advantage of? You have to acknowledge point number 3 above as a true statement to make this logical step. BDHill has already pointed out that you could have done well off of his crumbs. This could be a legitimate tactic - happens in the business world all the time.
5. In a tertiary sense, you need to look inward. Envy is a negative emotion, it is usually wrongly founded, and it will work against you on a consistent basis. An overall attitude adjustment will go far here - it won't guarantee you any further opportunities, but it will replace the impotent feeling of being a victim of whatever with a sense of "I have done all I can do". Don't be pissy that someone got a break that you didn't get - because you don't know what they did to create the break. Sounds like Citation Kid has worked pretty hard - have you worked that hard? Were you CFI'ing, carrying a full load in college AND doing charter stuff? In short - push negative thoughts of any kind out - and work hard. Any negative thoughts you have are pushing away thoughts that could be trying to figure out how to pursue your goals.

Be positive, and don't let anyone outwork you ever. EVER. Not a guarantee of success, but it does mean that you can say "at least I did everything I could do". Can you say that now? Can you say that you have worked as hard as CK? Can you say that you have absolutely killed yourself pursuing your goals? If the answer is "no", then perhaps you should find a goal that is worth killing yourself for or you should dedicate yourself further to this if flying is your goal.

 

[aloft]

Re: Unemployeed

Thanks for the comments, but I think you missed my point:

In any event, my point is that there are many, many pilots in the same predicament (or worse) as Alex right now. Sure, it's okay to vent about it and seek community support, but do so with the knowledge that you're hardly the only one. All I seem to read around here is sympathy for furloughees, which is fine, but let's keep in mind that for every guy furloughed, things just got that much worse for those of us not even on a seniority list someplace yet.

 

[derg]

Re: Unemployeed

Doug: I started flying in 1986, thank you. Professional flying wasn't even an option for me until the visual acuity standards changed in 1993/94.

I started about then too. Had my share of medial issues as well, but kept on chugging.

Remember when you stopped flying to roll the dice, as you told me, on the dot.com world? Parking lot of a N. Scottsdale Bashas near my neighborhood after I sprung for a round of drinks at "Sacred Ground" Wine Bar? I do.

I didn't finish my private ticket until 2002, and having an aversion to the huge training loans some here are burdened with, I pretty much trained/flew at a pace that my finances would allow.

Ok.

Pretty much just as you advocate to virtually everyone on here. But that's really not germane to the discussion. If I'm not mistaken, you had your ERAU flight training and education funded by a relative, or an inheritance or something, correct?

Incorrect. We've been thru this twice already.

You have about 40% fewer hours of turbine PIC time than your present employer normally requires of applicants, correct?

Didn't require any in 1997, however I did have PIC turbine and a type rating 12 months prior to applying.

You have never missed a hiring wave or been furloughed, correct?

Went to Skyway during a downturn because flying a Beech 1900 for an unknown carrier wasn't "beneath me" especially when the place to be was WestAir and Continental Express at the time.

Also went to Delta when Delta wasn't fashionable because I was supposed to be a "12 year second officer on a beat up 727 and all the action is at UAL". And no one in their right mind would come here because all the action was at UAL and AMR. Second year 777 FO and third year U2 captain at UAL or get hired at AMR where the pay rates where phat and who cares what seat you sat in.

I made a big career risk to work for Skyway and another career risk to work for Southernjets. It worked out for the most part, to this point.

I don't mind someone attempting to hold my feet to the fire, but if you choose to talk smack, at least come correct.

That's what I'm talking about when I say you've had it pretty easy. Other than the post-9/11 pay cuts you suffered, I have yet to read of any hardships you've endured in your career. If I'm missing something, by all means, enlighten me.

From your perspective. The little green monster tends to blind some from reality.

Seriously. You can spend the rest of your career complaining on how someone else, in your eyes, got a better deal or spend the time and effort to advance yourself in a positive direction.

No one wants yet another bitter pilot in their cockpit.

Just keep burning bridges, man. You're making it that much easier for guys with drive, ambition and a positive attitude to get a job when they come available.

 

[pipepatrol]

Re: Unemployeed

I could be wrong, but didn't one of your big breaks come because you were the creator of this website?

 

[aloft]

Re: Unemployeed

Remember when you stopped flying to roll the dice, as you told me, on the dot.com world? Parking lot of a N. Scottsdale Bashas near my neighborhood after I sprung for a round of drinks at "Sacred Ground" Wine Bar? I do.

Not quite accurate. I soloed in 1986, but that's as far as I went. I picked up my private training in 2001, at the midpoint of my dot-com career, when I learned that the FAA had dropped the uncorrected vision standards that had prevented me from getting anything other than a 3rd Class medical. So no, I never stopped flying to roll the dice in the dot-com world. I've worked toward it pretty much straight since then, as finances would allow. Maybe I should've taken out a big loan and gone to ATP in 2003, I don't know. You're right, the guys who did have all gotten where they thought they wanted to be.

Seriously. You can spend the rest of your career complaining on how someone else, in your eyes, got a better deal or spend the time and effort to advance yourself in a positive direction.

No one wants yet another bitter pilot in their cockpit.

Just keep burning bridges, man. You're making it that much easier for guys with drive, ambition and a positive attitude to get a job when they come available.

Positive attitude? I'm not the one who started a "woe is me" thread. Ambition? Drive? I have been busting tail since the week I got my commercial ticket doing everything I can to make it, and I know that I'm lucky to even be flying traffic right now, despite the fact that I can't live on what it pays. But it's cheaper than having to pay for the flight time myself, so I've stuck with it. So again, forgive me if I'm not terribly receptive to Alex' complaints, which resonated as just another case of Generation Y entitlement whining. Even though he lost his job, he's still in a better position than most, due to the breaks he's gotten thus far and the experience those breaks got him. Again, since you missed it or ignored it:

In any event, my point is that there are many, many pilots in the same predicament (or worse) as Alex right now. Sure, it's okay to vent about it and seek community support, but do so with the knowledge that you're hardly the only one. All I seem to read around here is sympathy for furloughees, which is fine, but let's keep in mind that for every guy furloughed, things just got that much worse for those of us not even on a seniority list someplace yet.

I'm done with this thread, you guys can get back to your "poor, poor Alex" posts now. I'll be busy figuring out how I'm gonna trim my budget to accommodate the $15 this afternoon's flight cancellation cost me.

 

[WacoFan]

Re: Unemployeed

I'm done with this thread, you guys can get back to your "poor, poor Alex" posts now. I'll be busy figuring out how I'm gonna trim my budget to accommodate the $15 this afternoon's flight cancellation cost me.

It would be a shame if you are done with this thread - this is a teachable moment. It is obvious that the "poor, poor Alex" thread bothered you, hence your post. You used his tail of woe to contrast your own...thereby trying to usurp his woe in a thread he started. You should start your own thread of woe and had you done that it would have generated empathy from many perhaps. The fact of the matter is, you felt compelled to vent your situation, now when people are calling you on your attitude you decide to leave the thread (that you hijacked and made about you). Yet more excellent networking and temperment display.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: Unemployeed

I'll be busy figuring out how I'm gonna trim my budget to accommodate the $15 this afternoon's flight cancellation cost me.

Probably cheaper than if you HAD flown

Congrats, you just saved yourself hundreds of dollars, go to town!

Attitude, man!

 

[aloft]

Re: Unemployeed

Probably cheaper than if you HAD flown

Congrats, you just saved yourself hundreds of dollars, go to town!

Attitude, man!

Huh?? It was a traffic watch flight, I wasn't paying for it. But unlike you, I don't get paid when a flight gets cancelled. It's a net loss for me.

But hey, that's two gallons of gas in my car I didn't use! Lucky me! Attitude!

 

[derg]

Re: Unemployeed

I could be wrong, but didn't one of your big breaks come because you were the creator of this website?

I don't know if it was big because I already met the quals. But http://www.execpc.com/taylord was referenced in a USAir frequent flyer magazine, which I never saw, and apparently, one a Southernjets MD-88 LCA had seen the article and liked what I was doing, along with some other internal recommendations from guys I flew with at Skyway that moved on.

That, in my estimation helped with getting an interview.

Jetcareers.com didn't come until January 2000 when I was starting my third year at Southernjets and hadn't even started the forum yet.

Everyone you fly with, speak to, do a rotation with or run across is critical because you never know who you're talking to or being heard by.

Hell, sometimes when I walk thru the doors of the pilot lounge, the chief pilot will say "Hey! What the hecks' up with XXXXXXXX. Did you see what he posted last week?!"

I'm not even kidding.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: Unemployeed

Huh?? It was a traffic watch flight, I wasn't paying for it. But unlike you, I don't get paid when a flight gets cancelled. It's a net loss for me.

But hey, that's two gallons of gas in my car I didn't use! Lucky me! Attitude!

That's fine, I figured you were renting the plane. Curious, why does their cancellation cost you, the employee, money?

 

[WacoFan]

Re: Unemployeed

I don't know if it was big because I already met the quals. But http://www.execpc.com/taylord was referenced in a USAir frequent flyer magazine, which I never saw, and apparently, one a Southernjets MD-88 LCA had seen the article and liked what I was doing, along with some other internal recommendations from guys I flew with at Skyway that moved on.

That, in my estimation helped with getting an interview.

Jetcareers.com didn't come until January 2000 when I was starting my third year at Southernjets and hadn't even started the forum yet.

Everyone you fly with, speak to, do a rotation with or run across is critical because you never know who you're talking to or being heard by.

Hell, sometimes when I walk thru the doors of the pilot lounge, the chief pilot will say "Hey! What the hecks' up with XXXXXXXX. Did you see what he posted last week?!"

I'm not even kidding.

A dead link played a part of getting you with Southernjets?

 

[derg]

Re: Unemployeed

It would be a shame if you are done with this thread - this is a teachable moment. It is obvious that the "poor, poor Alex" thread bothered you, hence your post. You used his tail of woe to contrast your own...thereby trying to usurp his woe in a thread he started. You should start your own thread of woe and had you done that it would have generated empathy from many perhaps. The fact of the matter is, you felt compelled to vent your situation, now when people are calling you on your attitude you decide to leave the thread (that you hijacked and made about you). Yet more excellent networking and temperment display.

I would like to offer you the adult beverage of your choice at my expense for your clarity.

Thank you. I wish I could have said that as clearly several posts ago.

 

[StrykerINF]

Re: Unemployeed

I am twenty years old and I have already lost my second dream job in aviation, this time after less than a month. I think it is time to find a new career path. The short story is that there are two owners, and each has his own airplane. Owner one flies his airplane 500 hours a year, and owner two flies his about 60. I was hired to fly owner two's plane for the company since it is rarely used. The only rule was that any trip in owner two's plane had to be approved by him. He denied use of the airplane to almost anyone who asked him, saying it would be busy, even if it wasn't. This made owner one mad and decided it was stupid for the company to pay me if all I was going to do was be owner two's personal pilot. Both are stubborn, so neither gave in, and I had to pay the price. I'll still do contract flying for them (I even have a trip this Sunday), but that means no more benefits and no guaranteed money. I did get accepted into grad school, so I guess I'll go get my MBA in Transportation and maybe get into the management side of flying.

Alex.

You're 20 and already in Grad school??

 

[aloft]

Re: Unemployeed

That's fine, I figured you were renting the plane. Curious, why does their cancellation cost you, the employee, money?

Cuz now I don't get paid for it. It's money that otherwise would've gone into my pocket.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Re: Unemployeed

I would like to offer you the adult beverage of your choice at my expense for your clarity.

Thank you. I wish I could have said that as clearly several posts ago.

:dunno:

 

[Bumblebee]

Re: Unemployeed

That's fine, I figured you were renting the plane. Curious, why does their cancellation cost you, the employee, money?

cause he doesn't get paid for his hour of flying...

 

[derg]

Re: Unemployeed

Positive attitude? I'm not the one who started a "woe is me" thread. Ambition? Drive? I have been busting tail since the week I got my commercial ticket doing everything I can to make it, and I know that I'm lucky to even be flying traffic right now, despite the fact that I can't live on what it pays. But it's cheaper than having to pay for the flight time myself, so I've stuck with it. So again, forgive me if I'm not terribly receptive to Alex' complaints, which resonated as just another case of Generation Y entitlement whining. Even though he lost his job, he's still in a better position than most, due to the breaks he's gotten thus far and the experience those breaks got him. Again, since you missed it or ignored it:

Let me be completely blunt.

The time you spent complaining about how better Alex, and in turn myself, according to you could have been spent networking and looking for opportunity.

The more time you spend bitching is the less time you're able to spend building bridges and making crucial connections.

Trust me, I know people that are looking to fill positions and are looking for qualified pilots to talk to. How in the world would I in my right mind, say, "This guy reaches 135 IFR minimums, but he's a glass jaw under (internet) pressure sometimes and tends to aim his weapon in the wrong direction, but here's his contact data"?

I want you to succeed. I want EVERYONE to succeed. Times are tough and the tough are out there making connections rather than burning bridges, taking the "Generation X Entitlement" tack and complaining about when it's going to be THEIR time instead of forging forward and seeking their own individual success.

Done with the thread? Good. You're dropping way more grenades than you are pouring cement.

 

[derg]

Re: Unemployeed

A dead link played a part of getting you with Southernjets?

Nah, it was the precursor to JC. First it was execpc.com/taylord them mindspring.com/taylord then JC.

 

[SteveC]

Everything WacoFan said, X 2.

Nice posts man.



(BTW Alex, "Unemployed", not "Unemployeed". You'll learn that later in grad school, but thought you might like a heads-up. )

 

[CK]

Re: Unemployeed

You're 20 and already in Grad school??

I did 27 credits a semester, three semester a year.

Alex.