Greg Feith on Colgan 3407

[gne in prog]

The same people on here that seem to think that putting a lower experienced captain in the left seat have no problems saying how great it is for instructors to go throw themselves into hard IFR alone at night in all weather flying 135 freight. What's the difference here? Just because there are people on board the pilots should have more experience? In my opinion this wasn't necessarily an experience issue... this was a complacency issue between two competent and qualified pilots. The pilot's in the 135 world (my world) are forced to learn alone about icing, thunderstorms, emergencies, and everything else you can possibly have come up in the world of flying... and they do it safely on a nightly basis and have been doing this for years. Not to be overly critical here... but these pilots just ignored flying 101, and I highly doubt it was a training issue. I'm pretty sure that lesson 1 or 2 in my private days I was taught if it doesn't have enough airspeed, it won't fly... pretty simple notion really. Icing... well, you have to learn sometime. Even if these 2 didn't have the 'experience' of some crews... realize that a lot of people out there have their first exposure to icing of any kind alone (I did). And, provided the airplane is capable, make it through unscathed (and happy to be on the ground). It's a bad deal, and it could happen to any of us, but I really don't think we should over analyze pilots experience levels... especially when the captain had to have at least 1500 hours total time and pilots with less are out there flying in the same if not worse weather.

the difference is the guy flying the freight isn't getting icing experience with my family in the back. just like when i got my first "icing 101" courses flying freight your family wasn't in the back.

i agree that the pilots in the colgan crash were complacent, competent is a different matter, and in the case of the captain you could question aptitude as well.

nothing bad would come of requiring 121 pilots to have more experience to get hired.

 

[gne in prog]

Doesn't the military advance their cadets into the Beech Jet before they have even 150 hours TT?

the parallels between military training and 150 hours at an fbo are few and far between.

 

[derg]

Doesn't the military advance their cadets into the Beech Jet before they have even 150 hours TT?

Again, look at the basic requirements to even apply for a pilot slot. Aptitude testing, OCS, physicals and basic pilot training they've had *to* that point they first see a Beechjet.

I think the overriding message is that it's not necessarily "hours" like points on a scoreboard, but the quality of the applicant, the intensity of training, etc.

You could literally fail every single checkride from private up to your commercial multi-engine instrument in the civilian world and as long as you have money for retraining, you can still eventually end up in the right seat in an airliner.

Largely, the way the civilian system is set up, if you've got the cash, you're going to make it eventually. There is a strong economic disincentive to tell a primary student "Dude, seriously. Aviation is not for you".

If you fail a checkride or even have a couple of "bad days" in training in the military, congratulations, you're a chief bottle washer and mess hall starts in oh, say, NOW, move it soldier! Today's spaghetti day! You must have a four-year degree, some leadership potential, pass a battery of tests, pass a real physical, survive rigorous mental and physical training in OCS then, if you're lucky and haven't washed-out, you might see an airplane.

Then you'd better perform. Daily.

Sadly, most of our civilian training is "check the box, move on to the next phase" and in the airlines it doesn't really change that much. "Ok, you're trimmed up, on slope, on localizer, you're off position freeze, this one will be to a missed approach"

Yup, we're all guilty of "Do it cheap, do it fast, the license I got at A Large Aviation University located in Prescott, AZ is the same one you'll get at Joe's Lube 'n Tube 'n Part 141 Pilot Shoppe", including myself.

 

[Firebird2XC]

If stupid people are at the helm its a product of the training department letting people through that shouldn't be there (I am a testament to that fact!). Fail or fire people who suck and the market will take care of wages. If the training department can't find enough people to pass the company will do what any normal company in a free market will do - raise wages to staff their expensive multi-million dollar paperweights.

If more commuter pilots crash and kill people passengers won't be flying on them any more and the free market will again take over and the commuters will all but disappear.

We have enough Government intervention already.

It's the training department's fault. Those folks let the recruiters send them marginally or sub-qualified pilots, and then pass them no matter how much they have to nurse them through.

I've seen it happen. If memory serves, there 500 TT requirements to serve as SIC in a 121 operation. MANY pilots were hired with sub-500 hour times.

I know. I was one of them. At the time, I thought it was a good thing. I have to admit I was just glad to have the job.

So the question has to be asked- who's approving all these waivers that airlines can duck this requirement? The FAA?

If they really had to deal with attrition and catch pilots at 500+ hours, even that would have made a dent in things.

Personally, from now looking back, even 500 seems a little low.

 

[granlistillo]

If memory serves, there 500 TT requirements to serve as PIC in a 121 operation. MANY pilots were hired with sub-500 hour times.

500 TT to serve as PIC? I thought it was an ATP. SIC was commercial multi instrument. Are you talking company mins or industry norm?

 

[Firebird2XC]

500 TT to serve as PIC? I thought it was an ATP. SIC was commercial multi instrument. Are you talking company mins or industry norm?

Whoops.. nope. That was a huge typo. I meant 500 TT to serve as SIC, not PIC. Nice catch.

Last I checked, you have to have an ATP (1500 hours) to be PIC.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Doesn't the military advance their cadets into the Beech Jet before they have even 150 hours TT?

I don't know what the hours are in the Military world but the military training is in a league of its own. The military also has a pretty good washout rate. If you don't make the grade you are gone. You can't throw more money at more trainig to get through like you can on the GA side. A simple 1 -2 hour cross country flight in the military can take 1 -2 days to plan.

The same people on here that seem to think that putting a lower experienced captain in the left seat have no problems saying how great it is for instructors to go throw themselves into hard IFR alone at night in all weather flying 135 freight. What's the difference here? Just because there are people on board the pilots should have more experience? In my opinion this wasn't necessarily an experience issue... this was a complacency issue between two competent and qualified pilots. The pilot's in the 135 world (my world) are forced to learn alone about icing, thunderstorms, emergencies, and everything else you can possibly have come up in the world of flying... and they do it safely on a nightly basis and have been doing this for years. Not to be overly critical here... but these pilots just ignored flying 101, and I highly doubt it was a training issue. I'm pretty sure that lesson 1 or 2 in my private days I was taught if it doesn't have enough airspeed, it won't fly... pretty simple notion really. Icing... well, you have to learn sometime. Even if these 2 didn't have the 'experience' of some crews... realize that a lot of people out there have their first exposure to icing of any kind alone (I did). And, provided the airplane is capable, make it through unscathed (and happy to be on the ground). It's a bad deal, and it could happen to any of us, but I really don't think we should over analyze pilots experience levels... especially when the captain had to have at least 1500 hours total time and pilots with less are out there flying in the same if not worse weather.

Yes there are companies that will throw newbie bare mins 135 guys to the world and tell to go for it. When I flew 135 the company was very responsible and stuck me in the right seat of the E-110 to learn the ropes and I had to see all the seasons before they would even consider a single pilot IFR upgrade to the 310/402 capt.

Experience did play into the Colgan crash IMO. Lack of training and experience in icning allowed them to become complacent. More experience in ice and/or training may have made the realize exactly how serious icing can be and how fast things can change.

I'm gonna have to call BS on saying that JAA at 250 is a superior pilot to FAA guys at 250. Book knowledge a pilot does not make. Besides. Look at all the JAA guys that are coming to the US for their training. Are they getting a better initial training in south Florida vs the other guys buzzing around? I doubt it. Sure their written exams are more numerous and in depth but they do the same thing we do. They buy books, learn some of the stuff and the rest they memorize. Its a matter of how motivated a person is to learn. Just because they may take some tests if they're involved in a cadet program doesn't mean a whole lot. Just like here, some never make it. Is that to say that they're better. No. Look at the volume of traffic vs. the accident rate. The US aviation system is the safest in the world. Why are downing ourselves to the Europeans?
I'll go head to head any day with a European in the cockpit.

I don't know about South Florida but when WMU was training the British and Irish cadets it was a completely seperate program from the FAA side and had its own JAA instrcutors. The BA students completed all their FAA ratings stateside and that was all paid for BA and then they went back overseas for the conversions then started their airline training. I got brief look at some of the materials they were using for their private training and it was above some of the stuff the FAA requires for ATP. The JAA hits weather very hard, something the FAA doesn't

 

[tonyw]

Look, anyone who says that increasing pay doesn't increase talent levels is full of crap.

The more you pay, the bigger the talent pool is.

And anyone who says having more people to choose from doesn't lead to higher standards for those who are selected are delusional.

 

[wheelsup]

Hell has just frozen over, cap and trade has been passed, and I agree with Mr. wang.

 

[gomntwins]

Yes there are companies that will throw newbie bare mins 135 guys to the world and tell to go for it. When I flew 135 the company was very responsible and stuck me in the right seat of the E-110 to learn the ropes and I had to see all the seasons before they would even consider a single pilot IFR upgrade to the 310/402 capt.

Experience did play into the Colgan crash IMO. Lack of training and experience in icning allowed them to become complacent. More experience in ice and/or training may have made the realize exactly how serious icing can be and how fast things can change.

I'll agree that experience did play a factor. But the simple truth is, you can't teach a pilot everything. You have to learn on your own. I've flown through a lot of ice and never has it been the same from any other icing I've encountered. Granted, it gets close a lot... but I have a hard time believing ice adhears the same everytime... I know it doesn't. As the years go on I get a lot more comfortable dealing with it and understanding the limitations my airplane has, but you can never teach everything you'll need to know. Hell, isn't the private pilot's license often considered a 'license to learn'. We all have to, as pilots, get out of our comfort zone from time to time... it's part of the job and the lifestyle. I'm not saying that their training couldn't have been better but I know my instrument instructor taught me, when I had less than 100 hours, if you get into ice and have an autopilot... turn it off. This icing scenario will likely be taught in Colgan groundschools and that's great. But, some other scenario will come up that the training department hasn't thought off that will again create havic on some unsuspecting flight. We're out there dealing with weather which is 'an act of God'... we'll never beat it. We can never teach people every scenario that comes up. Every day of weather is different.

As for the 135 comment. There aren't many 135 companies that don't throw people into the weather alone. It's something that's become standard as of late and I can only think of a handful of 135 companies that still have FO's and most of those are limited by insurance (they'd get rid of the FO's in a heartbeat if they could). Most 135 pilot's do fine alone. There are accidents, but for the equipment being used and the weather being flown in, it still seems like a very save avenue for inexperienced pilots that have a desire to learn.

 

[seaav8tor]

I taught departure training (spins) as an AF T-37 IP. I have watched the NTSB animation of 3407 several times. It is very clear the crash had nothing to do with ice. Marvin was task saturated, he pulled back, firewalled it and tried to get out of there. Watch the animation, airspeed, pitch, power, rudder inputs. Stall and Yaw. He spun it.

I wrote the following linked articles as my first posts on JC back in 2007. I knew 3407 was going to happen I just didn't know the flight number, date, or pilot names so I used Homer Simpson.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/53768-expectations-how-save-5-airline-ticket.html

I don't fault the pilot(s) when this happens; and when the next one happens. I fault the overseeers who did not have the guts to tell them they were not ready and/or did not have the right stuff.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

The Q has all the required systems parts and controllers for auto throttles, bombardier wanted to save money with a common type, and left it out. With said system, 3407 would never have happened. If we had better compensation and schedules that remotely look at human factors, 3407 prob wouldn't have happened. If people were not so concerened with saving on the short end, these long term issues would have gone away.

How about, if an airline has a crash, it should be illegal to pay the salary of the top 5 earners in managment untill every law suit is setteled, and they have met the reccomendations of the ntsb finalized report... I bet they would care more then
( drinking while iPhone posting... I am sorry mr. Grammar)

 

[MikeD]

The Q has all the required systems parts and controllers for auto throttles, bombardier wanted to save money with a common type, and left it out. With said system, 3407 would never have happened. If we had better compensation and schedules that remotely look at human factors, 3407 prob wouldn't have happened. If people were not so concerened with saving on the short end, these long term issues would have gone away.

Its not realistic to expect automation to be able to carry the weight for a crew who's out of sync and whose SA is in the dumps, at that moment.

Never say never in aviation, my friend. All those "auto throttle" this and "automation" that still depend on the human crew to operate it, otherwise it's just a tool sitting in the toolbox. Trying to tie some form of blame to Bombardier for a crew's direct screw-up is highly disingenuous.

It's akin to people who label a road as "unsafe" since there's been many accidents on it. But a road is just that: a road. It's asphalt or cement that just sits there and has cars drive on it. The onus is on the drivers of vehicles to use said road safely; so if they crash, it's 9 times out of 10 on them, not the road that just sits there and doesn't move.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

carry the weight, no... protected them in the situation? maybe, and maybe might have saved a few lives feb 12.

There is a LOT of stuff Bombardier should have done with this airplane, but did not. Most of the guys here will say that it seems like they took every piece of technology they could find, put it in a box, shook it up and said here you go!

There is a large contingent of captains that want to bid back to "other" equipment... but are not allowed to. You can not come from on of the other dash 8's and "hop right in" The common type is BS. They need to drop that so that they can place proper systems and controls in the airplane, and proper training to go with it.

Do I blame them for the crash? no... Do I blame them for penny pinching, working closet deal and putting out a very sub par product? yep.

Back in the mid 90's a contractor put the wrong cement in a truck doing a bridge project in VT. The result was a surface thats was smooth and slick, esp. when wet. There were lots of crashes, and the section labeled faulty. The road was not to blame.. the contractor who put it in was.

 

[derg]

Just a note from the peanut gallery, but you can stall a plane with autothrottles, especially depending on how they're programmed and what mode they're in. Most notably the maddog. If you're doing an IAS climb or descent when they're in CLMP mode, it'll give you exactly what you're asking for, right or wrong.

Especially if you intend to do "A" but program the automation for "B", it'll give you "B".

I'm not trying to give Bombardier or ESPECIALLY Colgan a free pass, because Colgan needs to get it's crap together QUICK and Bombardier needs to stop putting out cheap crap in order to compete with Embraer and cut out the Canadian jobs program they've got running up there, but that's why we have professionals in the cockpit. When all else fails... and it will... you need an aviator there that at least understands the basics of pitch and power.

Worse comes to worse, in almost any circumstance, almost no matter how you got there, energy management is going to save your bacon.

Massive windshear? Energy management.

Stall? That's pilot-shizzle 101... Energy management.

Unstabilized approach? Energy management.

Automation and safety systems will fail. Even though the company isn't paying for it in many circumstances, your family and your passengers depend on you to do the right thing. We're nothing more than a hull loss, a staffing shortage, several class action lawsuits, and bad press for the airline if things go pear shaped. But to our families and our passengers, we owe them much more.

Sorry... Late night chest-beating ramblings of soapbox piousness!

 

[WalterSobchak]

Experience did play into the Colgan crash IMO. Lack of training and experience in icning allowed them to become complacent. More experience in ice and/or training may have made the realize exactly how serious icing can be and how fast things can change.

What does this have to do with retarding the Power Levers and forgetting to push them up while you add drag by configuring? This accident would have happened in June if those two were together. That accident had nothing to do with ice other than they may have been pre-occupied with it. Look at the animation of the FDR. He configures with the PL's retarded eventually stalling the airplane. He then improperly recovers and the FO pulls the flaps totally up in the middle of a fully developed stall. Ice was not a factor other than a distraction. Bottom line is two bad pilots were sharing the cockpit and created a problem they could only make worse. The rest are excuses. Yeah Colgans training might be garbage and they might be tired, but it doesnt excuse what happened and the fact they shouldnt have been there in the first place. Gomntwins hit the nail on the head and you can't teach a pilot every thing or have every situation in the POM/GOM. They just weren't that good Colgan and maybe the rest of the industry need to make the holes in the net smaller so this doesn't happen again.

 

[trafficinsight]

Wait a minute... what makes a 250 hour JAA pilot have more experience than a 250 hour FAA pilot?

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Can't speak for the others, but over at Singapore, they run cadet classes that last nearly 3/4 of a year, followed by flight training, type ride etc. They then get to sit as second officer for a significant amount of time, before moving to IRO, and then finally 1st Officer. There is much more "progression" and formality given to the true progression of rank in the cockpit. When somebody finally gets behind the controls, they already have a lot of experience in that cockpit, and working in the company flows etc.


Sure, you don't learn as much as you would flying, and you may only have 250 hours total time, but you have close to 2 years of experience in the cockpit.


All of the above is second hand, from a friend that recently got qualified as 2nd officer in the 777. He went over with an FAA ATP, and was forced to convert to the JAA ATP in a lear before he could get into the program.

I almost assume that this is the type of training environment that would more closely relate to military training. High wash out, high work load... but you get tossed into the game in a limited capacity right away. I would trust somebody with those "250" hours more than somebody who just finished the commercial at riddle. Only because of the amount of time they spent in the back watching, I would assume the actual flying skills would be the same.

 

[Airdale]

Just a note from the peanut gallery, but you can stall a plane with autothrottles, especially depending on how they're programmed and what mode they're in. Most notably the maddog. If you're doing an IAS climb or descent when they're in CLMP mode, it'll give you exactly what you're asking for, right or wrong.

Especially if you intend to do "A" but program the automation for "B", it'll give you "B".

I'm not trying to give Bombardier or ESPECIALLY Colgan a free pass, because Colgan needs to get it's crap together QUICK and Bombardier needs to stop putting out cheap crap in order to compete with Embraer and cut out the Canadian jobs program they've got running up there, but that's why we have professionals in the cockpit. When all else fails... and it will... you need an aviator there that at least understands the basics of pitch and power.

Worse comes to worse, in almost any circumstance, almost no matter how you got there, energy management is going to save your bacon.

Massive windshear? Energy management.

Stall? That's pilot-shizzle 101... Energy management.

Unstabilized approach? Energy management.

Automation and safety systems will fail. Even though the company isn't paying for it in many circumstances, your family and your passengers depend on you to do the right thing. We're nothing more than a hull loss, a staffing shortage, several class action lawsuits, and bad press for the airline if things go pear shaped. But to our families and our passengers, we owe them much more.

Sorry... Late night chest-beating ramblings of soapbox piousness!

You have by far made the best posts in this thread.

+ Raise pay (attract higher qualified applicants)
+ Raise the hiring bar
+ Raise training standards

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Can't speak for the others, but over at Singapore, they run cadet classes that last nearly 3/4 of a year, followed by flight training, type ride etc. They then get to sit as second officer for a significant amount of time, before moving to IRO, and then finally 1st Officer. There is much more "progression" and formality given to the true progression of rank in the cockpit. When somebody finally gets behind the controls, they already have a lot of experience in that cockpit, and working in the company flows etc.

Sure, you don't learn as much as you would flying, and you may only have 250 hours total time, but you have close to 2 years of experience in the cockpit.

All of the above is second hand, from a friend that recently got qualified as 2nd officer in the 777. He went over with an FAA ATP, and was forced to convert to the JAA ATP in a lear before he could get into the program.

I almost assume that this is the type of training environment that would more closely relate to military training. High wash out, high work load... but you get tossed into the game in a limited capacity right away. I would trust somebody with those "250" hours more than somebody who just finished the commercial at riddle. Only because of the amount of time they spent in the back watching, I would assume the actual flying skills would be the same.

If my understanding is correct IRO's and SO's will not be doing any takeoffs or landings so that would just make them button pushers. Sure they would familar with the automation, systems, and cockpit but take all the automation away along with the Autopilot and I am sure they would be just as dangerous a low time FAA pilot at the controls off 777, CL-65, etc.

Again the military is very unique. They can take a 24 year old person and turn out a quality pilot in a short period of time. I don't know of any other program out there that is on par with the US Military Flight Schools.

What does this have to do with retarding the Power Levers and forgetting to push them up while you add drag by configuring? This accident would have happened in June if those two were together. That accident had nothing to do with ice other than they may have been pre-occupied with it. Look at the animation of the FDR. He configures with the PL's retarded eventually stalling the airplane. He then improperly recovers and the FO pulls the flaps totally up in the middle of a fully developed stall. Ice was not a factor other than a distraction. Bottom line is two bad pilots were sharing the cockpit and created a problem they could only make worse. The rest are excuses. Yeah Colgans training might be garbage and they might be tired, but it doesnt excuse what happened and the fact they shouldnt have been there in the first place. Gomntwins hit the nail on the head and you can't teach a pilot every thing or have every situation in the POM/GOM. They just weren't that good Colgan and maybe the rest of the industry need to make the holes in the net smaller so this doesn't happen again.

I agree you can't train for everything but icing is one of those things that should be covered in groundschool and at least seen on the Loft in SIM. Ice wasn't the direct cause but their lack of experience with it seem to have them a little too pre occupied with it. Listen to the tapes. A very green FO should have never been paired with this Captain. A lot of blame needs to lye with Colgan too. Why wasn't their a complete background check done. I think had the truth been known at the time of hiring the Captain may have never been hired.

If done properly you can configure at idle safely. The jet drivers do it all the time.

BTW Doug Taylor said it best. Engery Managment.