Continental pilot dies in flight

mjg407 said:
Which is interesting, from what I understand one of the Docs was a Belgium cardiovascular specialist, which brings the whole cass discussion earlier to a different level. Thanks for the information.
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Waiting on a 121 pilot to respond on this....
 
MikeOH58 said:
Waiting on a 121 pilot to respond on this....
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All this post-911 closed cockpit hog wash would totally go out the window. It is an EMERGENCY situation (even though safety of flight is probably not an issue, there is an issue of a dead guy, part of your crew). I fly every day without a cockpit door so I don't know what it is like to hear horror stories of hijacking and mass murders, but I would definitely let a doctor in, and if I felt it would help I would also let another pilot in.
 
I just read that he was on his way home to attend his mother-in-law's funeral. Sooo, now his widow has to bury her mother and her husband of 36 years. Poor woman.
 
Kingairer said:
Obviously you want to live alot longer then this, but not a horrible way to go out.
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Not a horrible way to die, but definitely a horrible place to die, in my opinion. The last place I would want to end my existence on this world would be in a cockpit thousands of miles away from family and friends. :(

MikeD said:
Just as an aside, why would he be on a scab list? Weren't all those guys "forgiven" by the union when they came back on property?

At least that's what I've been told.
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The phrase usually used is "forgiven but not forgotten." Lots of guys can't let it go, despite the fact that many of the CAL scabs have seen the error of their ways and have become truly great union members. One of the best ALPA volunteers I've met is a CAL 737 Captain in EWR that crossed the line in '83 as a newhire. He was young at the time and didn't really realize the magnitude of what he was doing. Now he's a die-hard union supporter and has helped us with organizing drives, including the CJC drive.

DE727UPS said:
Thanks for the correction. But if the Eastern strike was in 90, that WAS before CAL in 83.
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On what planet is that considered math? :)

The EAL strike was actually in '89. It carried in to '90, and the airline went out of business in January of '91. The CAL strike started in '83 and carried through '85.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
One of the best ALPA volunteers I've met is a CAL 737 Captain in EWR that crossed the line in '83 as a newhire. He was young at the time and didn't really realize the magnitude of what he was doing. Now he's a die-hard union supporter and has helped us with organizing drives, including the CJC drive.
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yep... cross the picket line, take 20 years to climb up the seniority list, then be a die hard union supporter

i like that idea! he's probably the same guy who bitches that the aviation industry is in turmoil because of guys willing to 'work for free'
 
"On what planet is that considered math?"

I'm not trying to revise history. It was quite some time ago. But my brain was telling me Lorenzo was at Eastern before Continental. In any case, both strikes produced scabs that had hell to pay for years, and Lorenzo was pilot enemy number one for years, as well. I do remember the CAL ads in the paper looking for strike breakers around 84. I don't remember the same for Eastern.

"Lots of guys can't let it go, despite the fact that many of the CAL scabs have seen the error of their ways and have become truly great union members."

Yeah, sorry, but there were quite a few guys in the early days of UPS that couldn't "let it go". Some of the best guys I've ever known and guys that taught me about how to be a Capt, and about unionism, were guys that never went back to CAL. They disagreed with "letting it go" for the sake of ALPA national. I understand that "letting it go" was an ALPA decision made in the financial best interests of ALPA. However, one of my UPS buddies had a friend who killed himself during the strike. He was never interested in "letting it go".

I would like to suggest that the "let it go" philosophy comes at a price....
 
DE727UPS said:
"On what planet is that considered math?"

I'm not trying to revise history. It was quite some time ago. But my brain was telling me Lorenzo was at Eastern before Continental. In any case, both strikes produced scabs that had hell to pay for years, and Lorenzo was pilot enemy number one for years, as well. I do remember the CAL ads in the paper looking for strike breakers around 84. I don't remember the same for Eastern.
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Lorenzo's Texas International bought CAL first, and later bought EAL with the goal of transferring EAL assets to CAL to make CAL the biggest airline in the country eventually. It obviously didn't work as he'd hoped, but that was the sequence of events.

They disagreed with "letting it go" for the sake of ALPA national. I understand that "letting it go" was an ALPA decision made in the financial best interests of ALPA.
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ALPA finances had nothing to do with it, and it wasn't "for the sake of ALPA national." It was for the sake of the loyal CAL strikers that didn't deserve to be left out in the cold simply because they were mixed in at CAL with the scabs. I guess you think ALPA should have just abandoned them to always be stuck with the weak and ineffective IACP independent union?

I would like to suggest that the "let it go" philosophy comes at a price....
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So does wild-eyed idealism.
 
MikeOH58 said:
Waiting on a 121 pilot to respond on this....
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We would use whatever resource available to handle the emergency at hand. If we need a doc, then we get the doc,if we need someone to handle radios, then we get that as well. I would make sure the FA is aware that we are in a vunerable position, and ask him/her to use good judgment when selecting our "volunteer". With only 30 seats on my airplane, this really is a moot point, but this is the line of thinking I would take as a 121 Captain.
 
coa787 said:
It's probably only for a few days.
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The big question is "for what". DE727UPS felt that it was important to play "name the scab" instead of just keeping quiet. I had remarked it was pretty sad that it was brought up somewhere else that this guy "may" be a scab.

Seems like DE727UPS is the one who needs a time out.... you gonna drop a deuce on the guys grave too?
 
Let's keep this thread on track, about the discussion of the events of the CAL pilot who died inflight.

Doug can/will discuss the banning matter if/when he sees fit to.
 
Bumblebee said:
We would use whatever resource available to handle the emergency at hand. If we need a doc, then we get the doc,if we need someone to handle radios, then we get that as well. I would make sure the FA is aware that we are in a vunerable position, and ask him/her to use good judgment when selecting our "volunteer". With only 30 seats on my airplane, this really is a moot point, but this is the line of thinking I would take as a 121 Captain.
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Understood. I'm just glad to see there are guys that would use their better judgement, and not let CASS be a definitive restriction against available resources.
 
MikeOH58 said:
Understood. I'm just glad to see there are guys that would use their better judgement, and not let CASS be a definitive restriction against available resources.
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That's in interesting view point, but I disagree it's "better judgement". It's the remaining flight crewmemeber's call on that one.

For me, it has nothing to do with CASS. Alot more to do with if that person will be more of a liability I have to watch than if they are a qualified crew member in a situation like that.

Do I want some private pilot, or some for that case, some ATP, that I have no idea if they even know what's going on? Are you really going to give someone your resume to let then know you are qualified while the individual is already juggling ATC, company, diversion planning, MedLink if that's going on? At 7 miles a minute, you could just miss your window of opportunity to get the jet on the ground in the most expeditious manner while you're trying to figure out if the person can even fasten a seatbelt.

If I'm not in uniform or not jumpseating via CASS to let them know I'm a crewmember, I'll sit in first and sleep. I don't even want them to know I'm a crewmember. As a matter of fact, I have a ticket tomorrow. I plan on looking very passengerish, checking my giant freaking rollaboard and relax.

I figure if they need something they'll make an announcement.

As I've stated before, I've sat beside crewmemebers on their first flight in the physical airplane. They were trained a full initial course, and guess what? They had their hands full.

You might be surprised that when the one of us gets up for physiological reasons, the other is able to handle the radio AND make changes necessary to stuff.

It's an emergency at that point, so there is no "right and wrong". There will be armchair quarterbacking and you WILL have to explain your decisions, but that's par for the course. If there is no info gained from the experience to better handle such a situation in the future, the entire experience gained is lost.
 
Polar742 said:
That's in interesting view point, but I disagree it's "better judgement". It's the remaining flight crewmemeber's call on that one.

.
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right Martin (doh!)... I think the better judgement comment is more about the captain using emergency authority rather than feeling hamstrung not using resources available due to lack of security screening. I might or might not feel the need to use the help of a pilot or even a doctor, but my decision to use them would not be based on whether or not they have been CASS approved. In the air I am the in flight security coordinator and as such have authority to allow (or disallow) any person I feel necessary.
 
Bumblebee said:
right Matt...
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Well, I know one free beer is coming my way. :beer:

I think Cruise might rightfully be insulted by that faux pas. :crazy:

I think the better judgement comment is more about the captain using emergency authority rather than feeling hamstrung not using resources available due to lack of security screening. I might or might not feel the need to use the help of a pilot or even a doctor, but my decision to use them would not be based on whether or not they have been CASS approved. In the air I am the in flight security coordinator and as such have authority to allow (or disallow) any person I feel necessary.
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I agree with you Dale (Beer me baby.....;) ), that's what it boils down to.

I definitely wouldn't look crossways at anyone who would solve the issue to a successful conclusion. There are many, many factors that would be taken into account.
 
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