Interesting landing yesterday

ozone

ozone

Well-Known Member
So, I found a local FBO willing to rent me a plane (PA28-161). I did a checkride a few weeks ago in one of their planes and I commented to the instructor that the right wheel brake pedal seemed a little soft. He agreed and said he would mention it to someone.

Fast forward three weeks to yesterday: I rented the same plane. After getting myself oriented, i started up the plane and felt the same softness on the right pedal again. A few pumps and it felt better. Soooooo....I take off and fly to an airport about 50 miles away. I do a nice totally-by-the-numbers landing, mains down around 65 knots, and the nosewheel comes gently down around 35-45 knots. Brake pedal feels soft again. Weather not so good, so I turn right around and head back to home base.

On final to the home airport: i am coming in a wee bit hot (85knots). I float forever (my fault, I know) and the nose goes down after the mains around 50-60knots. Now, I get the call from the tower "turn off at alpha"...which is coming up fast (because of all the floating earlier). Stupidly, i try to comply.

Only this time: the right main brake just sinks to the floor. Now the plane starts to skid a wee bit on the left side since i get a bit gripped. Rapid pumping on the right side brake brings some life back in to it and i make a wide turn onto alpha taxiway, facing the grass and some of the taxilights. The beast finally comes to a halt. After crossing the hold line from the runway, I return the the FBO with an elevated heartrate.

I get back to the FBO and turn in the keys, pay my bill and comment on the brakes. The instructor who had checked me out a few weeks earlier, who was standing there, says "oh yeah, I did mention it to the boss a few weeks ago" I then say that perhaps they want to take a closer look since it seems to me that the brake cylinder on the right is FUBAR. I also mention that I noticed that the oil pressure was just above the green line into the yellow. I get the response "yeah, that's just that plane"

Two questions:

1. should my speed coming down have affected the brakes (other than rolling out fast after landing hot)?

2. Should I ever rent from these folks again?!? Even if I pick a different plane, who's to know it's safe? OK, perhaps I answered my own question just then :rolleyes:

And another thing: is it normal to have an event like this and then truly freak out 6 hours later? (which is what happened since i awoke from a dead sleep in a sweat with the vision of my slowing/skidding playing on repeat in my head).

And one more thing: is this the kind of event that needs reporting anywhere? After all, nothing got broken....
 
You live and learn. We all get in situations were it may not shake us initially, but does downline as you debrief it and you realize the gravity of the situation.

I'd say just a few things:

1) If the brake pedal is soft going out, it won't get any better.

2) You can always tell the tower (unable)

3) If it breaks, write it down on the squawk sheet or logbook. Maybe the instructor forgot to tell the boss, or did and the boss forgot to tell maintenance. Maybe the place just runs shoddy. That's up for you to tell. But if you don't get a "warm fuzzy" from them, do you want to put your life in their hands when you fly an engine and airframe they maintain?
 
Well, I wouldn't rent from them again if you have another option, and let them know it's do to lack of care in maintenance. I'm not saying the mechanics are bad, but the boss has got to let them fix the plane and get it in the hangar often enough!

Probably a loose hydraulic line that was losing some fluid, when you pumped it, it took fluid from the reservoir and refilled the line giving you some pressure back. If it's a warrior, check on the upper left firewall for the brake fluid reservoir. If it's not almost to the top... you've got a leak somewhere. You can also check by holding the brakes down and seeing if fluid slowly leaks out by the wheels. The leak could be elsewhere as well.

Oh, a reminder, if you see red fluid, it's probably hydraulic and very corrosive, don't touch it!
 
Sounds like some of the planes I flew. I've never had a situation like that though. I wouldn't pump a brake on my way out to get it working, but anyway, like polar said, u live and learn. We've all had a moment when we think we're gonna die or get into a serious incident/accident, a minute later you everything is back to normal and your like "I hope nobody saw that!"
 
Polar742 said:
If it breaks, write it down on the squawk sheet or logbook.
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:yeahthat:
Once you do this, they have to look at it and either fix the problem with a corrective action signed by an A&P or write in "ops check ok" also signed by an A&P. Otherwise the plane should be grounded with an open squawk. Either way, there is a written account of a write-up so if you, or even worse, the next renter, has a problem you can point to it and say "hey, I told them it was broken and they said they fixed it."
 
Yeah, write it up and either don't fly the same plane; or don't fly at that school.

I had a similar situation where I was a cfi and one of the planes continually had a very marginal reading on the oil temp, to the point where we were continually having to pull the power back to keep it in limits.

Wrote it up; the response was 'do not write up aircraft when in limits'

Nice.

Took me about a month to find another place to work, and that particular school is no longer in business.
 
I would be hesitant to fly there again.

Never trust anyone to ensure anything gets done. Always make sure you are the one, even if you ahve to walk up to the mechanic yourself and tell him. Don't just mention it to an instructor and think he will take care of it.
 
Interestingly....there is no place in the logbook or anywhere else to write of a maintenance issue. All they have is a little black folder with a 4x6 sheet of yellow paper to write the hobbs time down and a photocopied 4x6 sheet with a sparse checklist. FWIW, I did see the desk person scribble my concerns on a post-it and paste in on the front of the "logbook"....yeah, as i write this i realize that i SERIOUSLY wont be renting from them for the foreseeable future.....it's just that they were so close to my home :(
 
you guys are a tough crowd. not renting from an fbo because of a mx issue, that in your opinion, never got addressed?

what if the mx guys did look at it, recharge the cylinder, and then over the course of 3 weeks, the cylinder pressure dropped again - because of a microscopic leak? In this scenario they did fix it, but the problem resurfaced because sometimes mx doesn't replace the whole unit because you said somethings wrong....

geez people. i bet these ac are maintained better than your car, house, and self.
 
ozone said:
2. Should I ever rent from these folks again?!? Even if I pick a different plane, who's to know it's safe? OK, perhaps I answered my own question just then :rolleyes:
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That's up to you. If it were me, the second flight would've ended the moment that I discovered the pedal was still soft. Whether or not I'd rent from them again would depend on how they handled the situation from there.
 
moxiepilot said:
you guys are a tough crowd. not renting from an fbo because of a mx issue, that in your opinion, never got addressed?

what if the mx guys did look at it, recharge the cylinder, and then over the course of 3 weeks, the cylinder pressure dropped again - because of a microscopic leak? In this scenario they did fix it, but the problem resurfaced because sometimes mx doesn't replace the whole unit because you said somethings wrong....

geez people. i bet these ac are maintained better than your car, house, and self.
Click to expand...

No kidding. Its like no one has flown for a living. "Could not duplicate, Ops check ok" If I had a dollar for every time I've seen this I wouldn't be on this website. I'd be running my brothel in a 3rd world country, sipping my drink and smoking a cigar...anyways.

You should not walk away from this problem. If the plane rented after you and there was an accident you're going to be a part of that investigation. A sticky note on the can or whatever is the most unprofessional thing I've ever heard of. I would take my concern to the owner/operator and then personally tell the mechanic. I would also inquire to why there is no squack sheet. I've never, never been somewhere where this has not been available-instruction/135/121. Now, if the problem is fixed, I would continue to rent.
 
In a similar situation in the future, I would assume that your brakes were on their last legs, and therefore be really on top of your speed on final, and definitely not accept any taxiway turnoff instructions. You're the PIC and tower can't make you do anything. That said, you could inform them that you might need a long roll out, so they can plan around you.

I'd consider renting from them again as long as you are comfortable that they have actually done something with the brakes. Write it up and then tell the MX people and hopefully something gets done.

Also if the brakes feel soft on preflight or as you taxi out, cancel the flight and write it up.
 
Polar742 said:
You live and learn. We all get in situations were it may not shake us initially, but does downline as you debrief it and you realize the gravity of the situation.

I'd say just a few things:

1) If the brake pedal is soft going out, it won't get any better.

2) You can always tell the tower (unable)

3) If it breaks, write it down on the squawk sheet or logbook. Maybe the instructor forgot to tell the boss, or did and the boss forgot to tell maintenance. Maybe the place just runs shoddy. That's up for you to tell. But if you don't get a "warm fuzzy" from them, do you want to put your life in their hands when you fly an engine and airframe they maintain?
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Exactly what I was going to post. I agree with all three points.
 
From an mx standpoint... Pedal going soft often means a bleed is in order, which would have most likely solved the problem in most normal circumstances.

Often when you have to pump the brakes to get pressure, it is an issue with the master cyl, which can be masked by a brake bleed job. Bleeding the brakes may have been done nice a quick, but ended up not fixing it. I had one, that would be fine for the initial actuation of the brakes, but as soon as you released, the check valves would stick, so you would not have brakes if you had to re apply... supprise supprise when they were just working, and suddenly are not.

Before jumping to a conclusiong, I would look though the log books or squak sheet and see what they did. If there was corrective action taken, I would not worry. Nothing done, nothing noted, then I would ask the CP if it had ever been metioned. See if it was just the CFI forgetting or if they knew and did nothing
 
ozone said:
Now the plane starts to skid a wee bit on the left side since i get a bit gripped. Rapid pumping on the right side brake brings some life back in to it and i make a wide turn onto alpha taxiway, facing the grass and some of the taxilights. The beast finally comes to a halt. After crossing the hold line from the runway, I return the the FBO with an elevated heartrate.
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I think the real question is, "should the FBO allow YOU to rent it?" :laff:

Honestly if I never rented from every FBO that had some issues with the brakes, tires, or leaks at one point or another. I probably wouldn't be flying cause I would have no where to go.
 
The issue is not whether aircraft have problems. They all will at some time; parts age and fatigue. Rather, how much attention is paid to squawks shows the character of the FBO.
 
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