JetBlue Pilots vote against union

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Your post seemed to say "this is all we are asking for, why don't they just give it to us".

I don't expect them to "just give us" anything, but I also don't expect them to be so incredibly unreasonable to demand 12.5% concessions while they are admitting that their profits this year will be all-time records.

Actually, I take that back. I do expect it, because they've proven time and again that they are consistently unreasonable.

I guess what I am saying is that you shouldn't be mad if management is doing what they were hired to do, just as they shouldn't be mad that you are trying to get more. It's just business.

Is it "just business" to terminate pilots to make them contract hostages? Is it "just business" to engage in an intimidation campaign against union volunteers? Is it "just business" to threaten to terminate 169 probationary pilots instead of furloughing them unless the union caves in and accepts concessions? Just business? I think not.

As for the amount of money, that's still quite a bit that can't be reinvested. Does the company reinvest, typically, or what do they do with their profits?

It scares me that you used to be a union rep. It is not my job to supplement their profits by taking industry-lagging compensation, benefits, and work rules. No one wants to run the company out of business, we just want our fair share.

Are they really going to make that much, seems the last financial statement showed the company losing money?

By the company's own admission, they will make record profits for the foreseeable future. The last financial statement from Q4 had the largest operating profit in nearly a decade. The net loss was a result of mark-to-market rules dealing with unwinding the fuel hedges.

 

[kellwolf]

In retrospect, the biggest mistake I made was not going to that UPS interview.

Wait, but then wouldn't you be just a "freight pilot?" I mean, every time Don actually comes out of hiding, you more or less disregard his opinion for that reason.....

 

[seagull]

I don't expect them to "just give us" anything, but I also don't expect them to be so incredibly unreasonable to demand 12.5% concessions while they are admitting that their profits this year will be all-time records.

Actually, I take that back. I do expect it, because they've proven time and again that they are consistently unreasonable.

Is it "just business" to terminate pilots to make them contract hostages? Is it "just business" to engage in an intimidation campaign against union volunteers? Is it "just business" to threaten to terminate 169 probationary pilots instead of furloughing them unless the union caves in and accepts concessions? Just business? I think not.

It scares me that you used to be a union rep. It is not my job to supplement their profits by taking industry-lagging compensation, benefits, and work rules. No one wants to run the company out of business, we just want our fair share.

By the company's own admission, they will make record profits for the foreseeable future. The last financial statement from Q4 had the largest operating profit in nearly a decade. The net loss was a result of mark-to-market rules dealing with unwinding the fuel hedges.

What scares me is that any union rep would go into negotiations without understanding the opposing side's motivations, limitations and directives. You can't win if you don't understand how your opponent actually thinks, not just what you THINK they think. You have to motivate them to come to your way of thinking, and based on what you've written, it appears you do not have a clear understanding of what motivates them to do ANYTHING. How are you going to motivate them if you don't truly understand how they think? The union always is at a position of disadvantage. You don't hold the big guns, so you need to find other ways to motivate them to change.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What scares me is that any union rep would go into negotiations without understanding the opposing side's motivations, limitations and directives. You can't win if you don't understand how your opponent actually thinks, not just what you THINK they think. You have to motivate them to come to your way of thinking, and based on what you've written, it appears you do not have a clear understanding of what motivates them to do ANYTHING. How are you going to motivate them if you don't truly understand how they think? The union always is at a position of disadvantage. You don't hold the big guns, so you need to find other ways to motivate them to change.

You assume that the guy sitting across the table from us actually has motivations other than the growth of his own ego. That may be the case at some companies, but not at this one. We have a Lorenzo style management that was schooled by Lorenzo himself. The only motivation is union busting for the sake of union busting.

 

[seagull]

You assume that the guy sitting across the table from us actually has motivations other than the growth of his own ego. That may be the case at some companies, but not at this one. We have a Lorenzo style management that was schooled by Lorenzo himself. The only motivation is union busting for the sake of union busting.

Maybe, but they still have to answer to the BOD and have a directive to add value to the company. If what you're saying is true, the management team won't last.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Maybe, but they still have to answer to the BOD and have a directive to add value to the company. If what you're saying is true, the management team won't last.

I'm sorry, but for someone that's been in this business for so long, you're incredibly naive. These guys are all buddies. They don't hold each other accountable for anything. They sit on each other's BODs, they join the same country clubs, they go yachting together, etc... The idea that they would remove their buddies from management positions without incredible shareholder pressure is laughable.

 

[seagull]

I'm sorry, but for someone that's been in this business for so long, you're incredibly naive. These guys are all buddies. They don't hold each other accountable for anything. They sit on each other's BODs, they join the same country clubs, they go yachting together, etc... The idea that they would remove their buddies from management positions without incredible shareholder pressure is laughable.

No, I'm not naive. Go ahead, believe what you want. It's a lot simpler and easier to assume your way of thinking, although, unfortunately, not all that effective in the long term.

 

[derg]

Is it safe to say that knowing a little about the both of your backgrounds, you both have valid perspectives? Or should I just keep my fool mouth shut?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Is it safe to say that knowing a little about the both of your backgrounds, you both have valid perspectives? Or should I just keep my fool mouth shut?

No, I'm sure his perspective is perfectly valid......at his company. It's completely invalid at my company and at most airlines. There are precious few airlines that treat their employees with even a modicum of respect. He needs to recognize that his beliefs about management's motivations do not apply at most airlines, where union busting is a top priority.

 

[WacoFan]

And the challenge to leave it up or we're ball-less? Come on, what is this, high school?

I am fairly certain that MQAA is a mod that does not have balls. If you have evidence to the contrary I will change my view.

Todd - Has AirTran hassled you for your role? Would love to hear what they have done, but understand if you keep it to a "yes" or "no".

As a follow-up - does Tran have a heavy concentration of Texas Air vets for management?

Lastly, I have heard that Tran has some EAL scabs. What happens if ALPA is voted in? Do they get membership, or will they be denied? If they get membership, do they have some form of penalty? Do they represent enough votes to make a difference in the election?

 

[seagull]

No, I'm sure his perspective is perfectly valid......at his company. It's completely invalid at my company and at most airlines. There are precious few airlines that treat their employees with even a modicum of respect. He needs to recognize that his beliefs about management's motivations do not apply at most airlines, where union busting is a top priority.

Your perspective may be perfectly valid at your company (I haven't paid much attention), but your assumption that your perspective is valid at "most airlines" is a leap. The top priority at most airlines, and companies in general, is to maximize shareholder value. The fact that you think that they spend the bulk of their time trying to figure out how to bust unions is as naive as thinking that a majority people in the Federal government spend their time working on elaborate conspiracies. Having worked in the environments, I can tell you from personal knowledge that most everyone is in crisis management, whether it be the union leadership, the company management, FAA or your favorite politicians office, Federal administrations, Safety Board or industry association.

Too much to do, too few people, always in reactive mode, with very little opportunity for advance planning.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Todd - Has AirTran hassled you for your role? Would love to hear what they have done, but understand if you keep it to a "yes" or "no".

I'll send you a PM.

As a follow-up - does Tran have a heavy concentration of Texas Air vets for management?

Our former CEO was "Forklift" Joe Leonard. He was a Lorenzo student from way back. Others were also in lower management positions, but have since retired. The only Texas Air leftover that is still here is Senior VP Steve Kolski. He has been busting unions for 40 years, and he's damned proud of it. The unfortunate thing is that his labor philosophy has been passed on to the people around him, and it's become the company culture. Even after he's dead and buried, his mentality will live on for a long time around here.

Lastly, I have heard that Tran has some EAL scabs. What happens if ALPA is voted in? Do they get membership, or will they be denied? If they get membership, do they have some form of penalty? Do they represent enough votes to make a difference in the election?

There are only a few dozen of them left. Less than 50. They will all be allowed membership, but those that still owe fines from crossing the picket line will have to repay them in some manner. They will have a few options for how to do that.

Your perspective may be perfectly valid at your company (I haven't paid much attention), but your assumption that your perspective is valid at "most airlines" is a leap.

Not really. Having worked for ALPA at the national level, I've seen plenty from a wide range of airlines. The mentality that I describe is widespread among airline management. There are exceptions: SWA, XTJ, JetBlue to a certain extent, possibly Alaska. But those are few and far between. Most are more like NWA, UAL, USAir, etc... Union busting is a way of life for them.

The top priority at most airlines, and companies in general, is to maximize shareholder value.

Yes, but far too many of them believe that busting unions will be the way to increasing shareholder value.

 

[WacoFan]

Todd -

I belive SWA is one of the most heavily unionized carriers in existance. There has been relative labor harmony there. Is this due to weak unions or simply a matter of union and management truly working together for the betterment of all? If they truly work well together (or did in the past), are any other groups looking at that relationship as a model/goal?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Todd -

I belive SWA is one of the most heavily unionized carriers in existance. There has been relative labor harmony there. Is this due to weak unions or simply a matter of union and management truly working together for the betterment of all? If they truly work well together (or did in the past), are any other groups looking at that relationship as a model/goal?

SWA management has always viewed the labor unions as partners in their success. As a result, they have mostly had labor harmony throughout their existence. ExpressJet has had a similar relationship with XJT ALPA in the past few years.

Herb Kelleher at SWA always said that his view was that if the company took care of the employees, the employees would take care of the customers, and the customers would take care of the shareholders. Too bad that most companies don't feel the same way.

 

[Lowlevel]

Darn... i doubt those guys will ever get a jumpseat

???
We are always glad to give the JS to a Jet Blue pilot.
They have gone out of the way so many times at JFK getting some of our pilots and FA's home. There was a time that I actually saw the captain of a B6 flight open the door back up after the flight was closed, because he saw one of our FO's standing in the window of the terminal. He made sure that FO got on.
I've had more hassles JS on DAL than I ever did on B6, and we are owned by DAL.

 

[Fins Up]

Darn... i doubt those guys will ever get a jumpseat

???
We are always glad to give the JS to a Jet Blue pilot.
They have gone out of the way so many times at JFK getting some of our pilots and FA's home. There was a time that I actually saw the captain of a B6 flight open the door back up after the flight was closed, because he saw one of our FO's standing in the window of the terminal. He made sure that FO got on.
I've had more hassles JS on DAL than I ever did on B6, and we are owned by DAL.

Glad we're able to help you out. I also appreciate the Delta guys helping me get to CAE on a regular basis to see my family.

By the way, do most airlines allow offline pilots to use jumpseats in the cockpit and the cabin or are we one of the few that do?

 

[FlyChicaga]

Fins, here at XJT our pilots can use the F/A Jumpseat. It's not available to offline pilots YET. That's because of the F/A's union, not the pilots. We'd like to be able to offer it.

My experiences on JetBlue have been very positive. My girlfriend had a bad experience non-reving, but that was because of a F/A on a major power trip. I'm sure that's unique to JetBlue. Ha!

 

[Fins Up]

Fins, here at XJT our pilots can use the F/A Jumpseat. It's not available to offline pilots YET. That's because of the F/A's union, not the pilots. We'd like to be able to offer it.

My experiences on JetBlue have been very positive. My girlfriend had a bad experience non-reving, but that was because of a F/A on a major power trip. I'm sure that's unique to JetBlue. Ha!

Sorry your girlfriend didn't have a pleasant "jetblue experience". If we could all treat others the way we would want to be treated, there would be fewer instances like this.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Eh, we all have bad days.

I was having drinks with a friend who flies for you guys now on the EMB190. He was joking how he can't fly without a HGS anymore, since the company wants them to use it all the time. You guys and your cool toys, sheesh!

 

[Fins Up]

I assume the HGS is the HUD. I'm not on the 190 so I'm not sure. I consider moving over to 190 CA from time to time, but the bus is just too comfortble. Plus my bidding would go from about 47% to the bottom guy on reserve.