ATP vs. FBO

dpgtime

dpgtime

Well-Known Member
Topic for the ages. I know...Well I did a full cost analysis of the FBO vs. ATP...The results..In Los Angeles it is cheaper to go to ATP hands down. It is not about ratings it is about twin and tt! FBO is crazy expensive in Los Angeles compared to ATP. FBO route with multi time building was almost 5,000 more.

In other places it would probably be cheaper to go to an FBO.

Any rumblings of ATP lowering the price again???? Might hold out a tad longer if they do.

(Thinking about the SWEET Gulfstream Academy STEAL!:drool:)


That was a joke.
 
Proof please. I totally agree with you, I just want to see the proof to beat down the nay sayers! I have done it too. And even if you look at other areas across the country, most people don't include ground instruction in their breakdown. And If you don't do the ground, you are missing A WHOLE BUNCH OF MONEY, AND EDUCATION. I went to ATP, I work at an FBO. ATP is cheaper when you compare apples to apples. I.E. certs/times to certs/times. Not some dude who says "I got 'all' my certs for $15k." It dosen't count if you are missing the ME stuff.

Thanks for the post. And I love the avatar. That dude is a waco!
 
Speaking reciprocally from what MShunter said, I trained at an FBO and instruct at ATP. From my experience, ATP is cheaper if you add in the ME thing.
 
I would love to show the proof but I made it as a proposal to my family and once I printed it out I deleted it....I know that was stupid. When people say the fbo is cheaper they only talk about ratings and no time building. Yes, and ground is never factored in.


Thanks for the avatar comment.....the man is one of a kind. Check out zuma dogg.


MSHUNTER where is socal are you?
 
Should not be hard to put side by side.

And when comparing remember that ATP/any accelerated flight academy has safety pilot time in the twin, so you should factor that into the FBO cost also - assume you can get someone in a similar position to split the bill. As far as ground goes - have 230 hrs total and no more than 5 hrs ground from the FBO route so a non starter for me.

For a fair comparison, you really have to detail both plans and calculate what is the ultimate cost, not just the price tag on the event.

For example; If you can afford to "pay as you go" then ATP has the significant hidden cost of interest unless you pay for it up front.
 
unclenobby said:
Should not be hard to put side by side.

And when comparing remember that ATP/any accelerated flight academy has safety pilot time in the twin, so you should factor that into the FBO cost also - assume you can get someone in a similar position to split the bill. As far as ground goes - have 230 hrs total and no more than 5 hrs ground from the FBO route so a non starter for me.

For a fair comparison, you really have to detail both plans and calculate what is the ultimate cost, not just the price tag on the event.

For example; If you can afford to "pay as you go" then ATP has the significant hidden cost of interest unless you pay for it up front.
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Or, if your lucky like me, you can pay the loan off well before it reaches maturity, and save big on interest. Thank you wifey for haveing a good paying job:D.
 
I think if one should decide on going to ATP, they should look at more than just cost.

FBO = Will fly you beyond what you need to get your ratings, try to give you more ground than you need, and you will NEVER know in the end just how much it will cost, bills just pile up and up and up.

ATP = Will throw you into checkrides before you feel ready, give you very little ground, and shove everything down your throat faster than you can swallow it. You already know how much it costs and gives you peace of mind.

I felt that I already knew my stuff and I just wanted to get done asap, did NOT want to deal with the typical FBO B.S, and wanted a fixed price if nothing else, just for peace of mind. ATP was a good fit for me.

If you need to be spoon fed, or have any learning dissabilities, DO NOT go to ATP.
 
BillH said:
I think if one should decide on going to ATP, they should look at more than just cost.

FBO = Will fly you beyond what you need to get your ratings, try to give you more ground than you need, and you will NEVER know in the end just how much it will cost, bills just pile up and up and up.

ATP = Will throw you into checkrides before you feel ready, give you very little ground, and shove everything down your throat faster than you can swallow it. You already know how much it costs and gives you peace of mind.

I felt that I already knew my stuff and I just wanted to get done asap, did NOT want to deal with the typical FBO B.S, and wanted a fixed price if nothing else, just for peace of mind. ATP was a good fit for me.

If you need to be spoon fed, or have any learning dissabilities, DO NOT go to ATP.
Click to expand...


This has been posted soooo many times, and this is the first time I have ever said anything about it. I instructed at ATP for over a year at DWH and every one of my students had LOTS of ground. For each rating they had almost as much ground (or more) as they did flight time. I instruct part time at an FBO currently between contract jobs, and the students there do not get the ground that the students at ATP Houston did. Just a local observation.
 
BillH said:
If you need to be spoon fed, or have any learning dissabilities, DO NOT go to ATP.
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If you need to be "spoon fed," aviation is not the career for you. There will be nobody there to help you when the $#!^ hits the fan when you are on a pleasure flight with your family.

wjmiller3 said:
This has been posted soooo many times, and this is the first time I have ever said anything about it. I instructed at ATP for over a year at DWH and every one of my students had LOTS of ground. For each rating they had almost as much ground (or more) as they did flight time. I instruct part time at an FBO currently between contract jobs, and the students there do not get the ground that the students at ATP Houston did. Just a local observation.
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Completely agree. I spent many hours in class rooms with multiple instructors teaching me everything I needed to get a bust free record. I did study a lot on my own, but I was also given a lot of knowledge in class.
 
BillH said:
I think if one should decide on going to ATP, they should look at more than just cost.

FBO = Will fly you beyond what you need to get your ratings, try to give you more ground than you need, and you will NEVER know in the end just how much it will cost, bills just pile up and up and up.

ATP = Will throw you into checkrides before you feel ready, give you very little ground, and shove everything down your throat faster than you can swallow it. You already know how much it costs and gives you peace of mind.

I felt that I already knew my stuff and I just wanted to get done asap, did NOT want to deal with the typical FBO B.S, and wanted a fixed price if nothing else, just for peace of mind. ATP was a good fit for me.

If you need to be spoon fed, or have any learning dissabilities, DO NOT go to ATP.
Click to expand...

What a crazy post.

FBO's flying you beyond what you need? Insanely broad and sweeping statement. So you're telling me an FBO will not sign off a student for written or checkride even if they think they are ready just to get a few more dollars out of them? Most FBO's don't lock in their customers money (unlike ATP) so it makes no sense to do this (it's called return customer, and they depend on them for business)

FBO's giving more ground than you need? Dude, you're the customer, you take as much or as little ground as you need or want to pay for. How about you come in prepared and your instructor will know that and won't need to do much if any ground. Like I said - paid for about 5 hrs ground in 230 hours total time so far for me.

If already knowing the cost gives you peace of mind then good. If you want directly control your cost and have more options then the FBO route is they way to go. Get it done for cheaper and on your terms (i.e. no shoving it down your throat).

Also, your last post kind of implies if you need to be spoon fed then go to an FBO yet you state things get shoved down your throat at ATP (sound's like spoon feeding to me).

If you are a self starter, disciplined and confident you can get everything at an FBO for less than ATP, and probably have more fun doing it.
 
I went to ATP and I teach at an FBO.
ATP will get it done fast and with the right instructors some quality training. I don't regret any decision I made in where I went, but I've always been a l"ock me in the closet and leave me alone to study" kind of guy.

At an FBO that has the airplanes and the instructors to get all of the ratings you can accomplish everything the same way for a very similar cost.

The benifit of the FBO route is that you get to do your training however you want and if one method isn't working you can switch it up, you may have a wider variety of aircraft, you can choose where you fly to, and bring friends or family along. The instructor is yours for the time you schedule them, and while timebuilding your imagination is your limit. The drawback is that you really don't know what it will cost when it is over, and it may take a longer time. (this has its benifits as well , seeing allseasons, talking to a wider variety of people, etc) At a good flight school the only reason you will spend more than you plan is because you need the training. At ATP they will throw you to the wolves (examiners) when your time is up.

Once again, I really enjoyed my atp experience and would do it that way again, but I didn't have a flight school with the resources needed nearby. Now that I work at a flight school with the planes and instructors I say that the power of choice is the benifit. There will always be safety pilots to split time with and sims to be flown no matter the route, and this is where ATP keeps their cost down.

I hope this helps
 
29.92inHg said:
I went to ATP and I teach at an FBO.
ATP will get it done fast and with the right instructors some quality training. I don't regret any decision I made in where I went, but I've always been a l"ock me in the closet and leave me alone to study" kind of guy.

At an FBO that has the airplanes and the instructors to get all of the ratings you can accomplish everything the same way for a very similar cost.

The benifit of the FBO route is that you get to do your training however you want and if one method isn't working you can switch it up, you may have a wider variety of aircraft, you can choose where you fly to, and bring friends or family along. The instructor is yours for the time you schedule them, and while timebuilding your imagination is your limit. The drawback is that you really don't know what it will cost when it is over, and it may take a longer time. (this has its benifits as well , seeing allseasons, talking to a wider variety of people, etc) At a good flight school the only reason you will spend more than you plan is because you need the training. At ATP they will throw you to the wolves (examiners) when your time is up.

Once again, I really enjoyed my atp experience and would do it that way again, but I didn't have a flight school with the resources needed nearby. Now that I work at a flight school with the planes and instructors I say that the power of choice is the benifit. There will always be safety pilots to split time with and sims to be flown no matter the route, and this is where ATP keeps their cost down.

I hope this helps
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Agree. The academy vs FBO debate is a lesson in futility. Both academies and FBOs have their plus's and minus's. It depends what you, as a student, want and require in your own training.
 
MikeD said:
Agree. The academy vs FBO debate is a lesson in futility. Both academies and FBOs have their plus's and minus's. It depends what you, as a student, want and require in your own training.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:

Short, sweet, simple... yeah... it's as easy as that.
 
mshunter said:
Proof please. I totally agree with you, I just want to see the proof to beat down the nay sayers! I have done it too. And even if you look at other areas across the country, most people don't include ground instruction in their breakdown. And If you don't do the ground, you are missing A WHOLE BUNCH OF MONEY, AND EDUCATION. I went to ATP, I work at an FBO. ATP is cheaper when you compare apples to apples. I.E. certs/times to certs/times. Not some dude who says "I got 'all' my certs for $15k." It dosen't count if you are missing the ME stuff.

Thanks for the post. And I love the avatar. That dude is a waco!
Click to expand...

Just curious, what is the story behind that dudes avatar. Im assuming that is some nut on youtube.
 
MikeD said:
Agree. The academy vs FBO debate is a lesson in futility. Both academies and FBOs have their plus's and minus's. It depends what you, as a student, want and require in your own training.
Click to expand...

The debate here is that the original post claims he calculated that the FBO route is $5K more exepensive than ATP. However, the original poster has been unable to post this comparison. (the dog or cat ate it)

So, I'd like to see how the FBO is more expensive than 60K.

Per ATP website - 110 hrs single engine.
Let's go expensive and say $120 an hour $13,200
95 hrs instruction = 95*45 = $4,275

Per ATP 165 Hrs Multi -
50 Hrs in the Sim most FBO's sim is $40 + $45 instruction = (95 *50) $4,250
50 Hrs twin XC (no instruction), lets say twin is $230 hr and it's safety pilot time = (50*230)/2 = $5,750
For checkrides you have to pay full use per hour. Let's say 4 CR's (private, ins, comm and MEI) = 4*2*30 = $1840
This leaves 57 hrs multi time left. Let's assume it's all instruction and no safety time involved = 57*(230+45) = $15,675.00

So, I calculate $45K and that includes 202 hrs instruction. That's 15K less straight away. Plenty of funds to cover the books, living expenses if you're away from home (which most people are not at an FBO), or if you need a few more hours or need extra ground.

Do the 110 single hrs in a 152 and save $3K.

Once again, to the original poster, proove how the local FBO costs more than 60K for the hours listed on the ATP website. The numbers I used above are pretty average. There are more exepnsive FBO's and cheaper ones too.

I think these posts are extremely useful in helping people decide what they want and showing people there are viable alternatives - and helping them save a significant amount of money.
 
unclenobby said:
Once again, to the original poster, proove how the local FBO costs more than 60K for the hours listed on the ATP website. The numbers I used above are pretty average. There are more exepnsive FBO's and cheaper ones too.

I think these posts are extremely useful in helping people decide what they want and showing people there are viable alternatives - and helping them save a significant amount of money.
Click to expand...

I believe that someone (yeah, I might just do it) oughta build a spreadsheet comparing some average numbers. Something you need to consider though:

The OP may have been calculating in living costs, which ATP includes as part of the program, I believe. Also - I've seen a lot of FBOs running per-hour fuel surcharges as well. And finally, one must also consider cost-overruns - ATP's price is fixed.

I'm not making an argument for or against, one way or another, but the above items are facts that generally get overlooked in these discussions, and the first and third items (living costs and fixed price) have soft-dollar values which are in the eye of the beholder. Consider these carefully.
 
Is ATP price fixed? - only if you get done in the time allotted? What if you need 5 hrs more twin time? Doubt that's free.
I think 15K change is adequate change for living expenses for 1 yr plus. However If you think the 60K price tag is worth it then more power to you I suppose. 50 hrs in the sim sounds like a blast.
 
unclenobby said:
Is ATP price fixed? - only if you get done in the time allotted? What if you need 5 hrs more twin time? Doubt that's free.
I think 15K change is adequate change for living expenses for 1 yr plus. However If you think the 60K price tag is worth it then more power to you I suppose. 50 hrs in the sim sounds like a blast.
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I do know that the price is fixed at ATP. How they handle "extra" needs should be handled by someone who works for them. Jeremy, I'm looking in your direction....

Don't get your hackles up at me on this. I don't have a dog in this fight, but if there is discussion about price comparisons, then all the information needs to be considered - I was just pointing out the couple facts that tend to get overlooked in this age-old debate.
 
Not jumping on you over this KB. Like I said in a previos post, the original poster claims FBO is $5K more exepensive but "lost" his proof!!

I presented a very reasonable price comparison based on what is quoted on the ATP website vs costs at your average FBO.
 
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