Short Field Landings...Frustrated!

G

Gambinja

New Member
Hi everybody.

Looking for a little insight as to what some of you CFI's to do ensure that you make sure you don't over/undershoot your landing point beyond Commercial PTS. I'm having trouble doing this, and it's becoming very frustrating.

I'm flying a 1979 Cessna 182RG, and am in the initial stages of my Commercial training.

I'm having trouble finding the correct power/flap settings in order to target certain airspeeds. In this airplane, generally, I'm looking for 85 knots right before I turn base, 75 knots while on base, and 65 on final.

When I seem to have my airspeed(s) that I want, I'm having trouble making a constant-rate descent all the way down to my touchdown point.

I guess what I'm looking for are the proper altitudes AGL to commence base and final turns, and general tips as to targeting airspeed, descent rates, and landing points proficiently.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as this is becoming a big nuisance. Partial-panel ILS, VOR approaches in this airplane, no problem. Landing on the spot I want to land on, right now - a problem. Doesn't make sense, does it? I am confident in my abilities, and know that I'll break out of this rut, but right now maybe there's something that I'm completely missing here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
Well this may not be in as much detail as you want but for me it's all about sight picture as I turn final. In our 182(not an RG) I shoot for 60mph and 14" on final as a starting point. Aim short of your point to anticipate the float. I just put my spot in the windshield and keep it there. Use the throttle to keep it in the same spot and glance at the airspeed to make sure i don't get too slow. Overly simplistic I know but keeping it that simple in light aircraft has worked well for me.
 
Gambinja said:
Doesn't make sense, does it?
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Actually... haha it does. I know during my IR training, my approaches were spot on, and my landings... were well.. less than perfect haha... that's just usually how it goes.... are you transitioning for Instrument stuff to Commercial? if so.. the only thing that helped me was just practice.. and that one time you get it... do the same thing every time... thats what helped me...
 
Gambinja said:
I'm having trouble finding the correct power/flap settings in order to target certain airspeeds.
Click to expand...
That sounds like part of the problem here. Use pitch more than power to control your airspeed on final. Once you get that airspeed stable and trim the aircraft, the decent rate will be much easier to manage.
 
Gambinja said:
I guess what I'm looking for are the proper altitudes AGL to commence base and final turns, and general tips as to targeting airspeed, descent rates, and landing points proficiently.
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If you're looking for a purely mechanical way of making these landings work out, I don't think there is one that will work for all conditions, all airfields. You *must* be able to make adjustments based on the sight picture that exists when you turn to final.

The two most important points, in my view, are

  • In order to land on a particular spot, you must have the aircraft actually heading for a point prior to where you want to touch down. You can recognize this point as the one which doesn't move in the windscreen as you fly down final.

  • The distance you need to lead your touchdown spot depends on the wind conditions, temperature, pressure, aircraft weight, speed, etc. The only way to ensure that you will never overshoot your point is to intentionally undershoot, so that you need to add just a little power once you enter ground effect. As you round out, bring the yoke and throttle back together, adjusting the rate of each to touch down on your target.
 
The text book answer for the speed is simply 1.3 x Vso and if i remember right, it worked pretty well with min. float.
I used the C-182 RG for one of my checkrides.

I also found that picking a spot to enter ground effect just prior to your spot was essential. Play around to find what works for you.

Also, make sure you come in from a higher approach angle, I found that the flatter my approach the worse and harder it was. Make sure it is stable too, it shouldn't look like you are flying down a stair case.
 
Overshooting is typically due to too much airspeed, imo. Try flying a longer final. make sure you are established, maintain 64kts (I believe that is the speed for the 182rg short field final) dont get high and carry it with power. undershooting should not be a problem, just add a touch of power/pitch. If you are on speed, and on glideslope once you cut power you should not overshoot your spot!

Just my cent and a half worth;)
 
Just don't float it to much.... Remeber the PTS says land with minimal float. That seems to be a common problem I have seen in my short time as a CFI. People under shoot then add power and float it in. Not good in my opinion.

When my students are having trouble on shorts I make them adjust by being at final approach speed and flap setting on base. That way you have more time on final to adjust and lock in the picture and speed.

Also, try and widen your pattern some. Again it gives you more time to get things stabilized.
 
This is kind of on topic but...I work with a former MAF pilot who flew 185s into jungle airstrips in Indonesia. Apparently they drag it in way behind the power curve, with lots of power. In some situations they would actually ADD power to flare, as they would come in at a high enough AOA that they couldn't really flare like we typically do. Those guys are impressive.
 
yeah, another thing that i found that really shortens roll out is dumping the electric flaps just before the flare. NOT FOR YOUR TEST.
 
Thank you for the replies, everybody. Like I said, I'm sure this issue will iron itself out with practice. I will keep in mind the things everyone said when I go up flying next time.

I must say, I am very humbled at the fact that there are so many out there willing to help out someone having trouble...One of the great things about the flying community. Thanks again!
 
Everyone has had this problem at some time, whether its during their initial training, checkride or even recurrency training. usually the problem is over thinking, its all mental. my best landings are the ones requiring me to manuever over or around obstacles while landing in the bush. when i go back to my base which is at a long paved wide runway, this is where my less than perfect landings occur, because i think or worry about making a good landing for my passengers. at the ruff short strips they dont expect a good landing so there is no pressure. its just a theory but i feel there is some truth to it. dont make the mistake of focusing so much on having pre determined altitudes met, go by feel and sight. Also, dont give so much attention to airspeed, especially the EXACT numbers. You need to look outside alot more. When my students had trouble with steep turns holding altitude i would cover up the altimeter and have them look outside and the turns improved incredibly! several thousand hrs in the bush and i've never actually looked at the number associated with airspeed when landing but instead where the airspeed needle is in relation to the green and white arc. EX: 3'oclock is about equal to best rate/glide and base and final. the closer ya get to the runway the slower you get (obviously). try it, dont focus so much on actuall numbers and i promiss you will get it right with less effort more profeciency and have more time to devote to other things. Controlling descent rate: on a fairly smooth day, you should be able to (set power and pitch) trim your plane and fly hands off from base to final and even landing if conditions are suiting. i used to have students practice this (along with slow flight) when they were having trouble with the pitch & power relationship or controlling airspeed or descent rate. DOH! Its that #'s thing again, these lil planes dont need any instruments to be flown. no altimeter, no airspeed, nothing. they need stick & rudder or "seat of the pants flying". I know its a hard concept to believe because almost everyone talks about flying the numbers. theyre very important in bigger heavier planes like multies and jets. the faa is big on numbers & private pilots because so many people dont have that kenesthetic seat of the pants feel and lose control or stall and spin due to lack of maintaining proper airspeed. my techniques may seem a lil strange because i learned to fly in the mountains but when i started flying the bush i found that others used the same technique as me?! there are alot of different ways to fly a plane, just have an open mind and listen to everyone who is willing to give you advice because it all helps. One last thing, i would highly suggest going out and doing some fun flying without flying numbers, just go by feel. it'll be fun and i bet youll notice a difference:)
Gambinja said:
Hi everybody.

Looking for a little insight as to what some of you CFI's to do ensure that you make sure you don't over/undershoot your landing point beyond Commercial PTS. I'm having trouble doing this, and it's becoming very frustrating.

I'm flying a 1979 Cessna 182RG, and am in the initial stages of my Commercial training.

I'm having trouble finding the correct power/flap settings in order to target certain airspeeds. In this airplane, generally, I'm looking for 85 knots right before I turn base, 75 knots while on base, and 65 on final.

When I seem to have my airspeed(s) that I want, I'm having trouble making a constant-rate descent all the way down to my touchdown point.

I guess what I'm looking for are the proper altitudes AGL to commence base and final turns, and general tips as to targeting airspeed, descent rates, and landing points proficiently.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as this is becoming a big nuisance. Partial-panel ILS, VOR approaches in this airplane, no problem. Landing on the spot I want to land on, right now - a problem. Doesn't make sense, does it? I am confident in my abilities, and know that I'll break out of this rut, but right now maybe there's something that I'm completely missing here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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I dunno why but I found the 182RG tough to land well (easy to land, tough to grease) for about 50 hours or so. Part of it is probably due to being pretty forward on the CG with just me, or me and an instructor up front. Plus you can't see squat over that big ol' nose and those little main gear tires are sort of, uh, hard.

Anyhow, yeah, slow down a touch to minimize float. The proper picture will come with practice.

Not that you asked, but for power-off 180 precision landings I configured with gear down, 10 degrees of flaps before cutting the power, then trimmed for 72 knots, slipped if needed and put in full flaps on short-short final, basically as I was starting my round-out/flare. Works like a charm. It took a bunch of practice but eventually I could put it where I wanted it. You'll be able to as well.

I did my instrument, commercial and CFI in a 182RG. Love that airplane.

I attached my little checklist of power settings, configurations I used for my commercial so somebody can get some use out of the thing. :)
 

Attachments

I did my commercial and CFI in a 182RG, I love the plane!

The first key to accuracy landings is airspeed, airspeed and airspeed.

I shoot for 65kts on a 1/4 mile final with 40 deg of flaps (these are great for power off accuracy landings too if used right). Your aim point will depend on wind conditions, but in a calm wind I aim about 75 ft in front of the touchdown point. Our plane does have a STOL kit installed, for the most part this means I can hit the test pilots landing distances.

As far as the nose heavy tendancy goes I find when you add the last notch of flaps one turn down of the trim wheel will do wonders so you can keep a smooth touch on the elevator. As you get into the roundout and flare look half way down the runway between the glare shield and where the windscreen wraps aroudn to the side of the plane. You will have great vis, trying to look over the cowl will take away your visibility.

You have a great airplane, have fun with it!
 
I agree w/ riccochet. It's not about airspeed, but rather about the outside image. Which would otherwise translate to your descent rate. So trim for 500fpm, forget the airspeed, and maintain the image. My CFI got tired of me chasing airspeed, and would cover the gauge during my commercial training. If you maintain the correct angle of attack, implicitly the outside picture and VSI you should be fine. One more thing to do is aim a bit 20-30 feet short, at this descent rate, the ground effect should put you on the numbers.
 
Radu38J said:
I agree w/ riccochet. It's not about airspeed, but rather about the outside image. Which would otherwise translate to your descent rate. So trim for 500fpm, forget the airspeed, and maintain the image. My CFI got tired of me chasing airspeed, and would cover the gauge during my commercial training. If you maintain the correct angle of attack, implicitly the outside picture and VSI you should be fine. One more thing to do is aim a bit 20-30 feet short, at this descent rate, the ground effect should put you on the numbers.
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The "outside image" is key this is true; however you must be on a stabilized approach to make it work. This means on speed. Go try to fly a 182 down final at 80 knots and try to make a precision landing.

If you are chasing airspeed you are not stabilized. Once you are set up on a stable approach you should not have to keep looking at the asi. Eyes outside, small power/pitch changes to touch down!

If you think airspeed is not important, try making that spot landing carrying 10 extra knots!

the reason the cfi will make you look out side, and/or cover up the asi is because most people, ppl student or otherwise can make a smooth approach by "feel' alone.
 
mooneyguy said:
The "outside image" is key this is true; however you must be on a stabilized approach to make it work. This means on speed. Go try to fly a 182 down final at 80 knots and try to make a precision landing.
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Actually you can IF you approach at 80 kts all the time and know how the airplane performs at that stabilized approach speed. Of course, you'll be starting your flare way before the runway, so I wouldn't bet on coming over any proverbial 50' obstacles.

No, I'm not suggesting an 80 kt approach in a 182. Rather I'm echoing the point about stability. When I teach short field landings, I have the student initially concern herself with the stability of the approach at the appropriate short field approach speed. Location is limited to =observing= how far the airplane travels from the beginning of the roundout to touchdown. That establishes a baseline derived by the pilot (a useful skill for later) for how the airplane performs when properly configured which can then be used to select a target for the flare that will result in a touchdown on the desired spot, with only minor variations for wind conditions.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Actually you can IF you approach at 80 kts all the time and know how the airplane performs at that stabilized approach speed. Of course, you'll be starting your flare way before the runway, so I wouldn't bet on coming over any proverbial 50' obstacles.

No, I'm not suggesting an 80 kt approach in a 182. Rather I'm echoing the point about stability. When I teach short field landings, I have the student initially concern herself with the stability of the approach at the appropriate short field approach speed. Location is limited to =observing= how far the airplane travels from the beginning of the roundout to touchdown. That establishes a baseline derived by the pilot (a useful skill for later) for how the airplane performs when properly configured which can then be used to select a target for the flare that will result in a touchdown on the desired spot, with only minor variations for wind conditions.
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That is true, and the key to this discussion is not a set in stone do this and you will get this. Because things always change, weather, W&B, two different 182's may fly completely differnet.
The only real key to any approach is learning how to fly a stable approach!
 
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