135.243(a)(1) - Pilot need an ATP to conduct on-demand jet operations?

[Fly_Unity]

Big internal conflict on the meaning of 135.243.

§ 135.243 Pilot in command qualifications.
(a) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command in passenger-carrying operations—

(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.

Scenario: You put a Cirrus Vision Jet on a 135 certificate, It has less than 10 seats, and is on-demand only (not scheduled). Does the pilot need to hold an ATP certificate?

Argument 1: Pilot needs to have an ATP as the first comma means "or".

Argument 2: Pilot does not need to hold an ATP as it reads like this:

• Of a turbojet airplane or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter.
• of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration of 10 seats or more

The first comma breaks out the kind of airplane (10 or more). If you remove the breaks and put the sentence together, you get the sentence listed in the first bullet. The second bullet is the subtext broken up by the commas stating the 10 or more configuration.

 

[milleR]

Big internal conflict on the meaning of 135.243.

§ 135.243 Pilot in command qualifications.
(a) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command in passenger-carrying operations—

(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.

Scenario: You put a Cirrus Vision Jet on a 135 certificate, It has less than 10 seats, and is on-demand only (not scheduled). Does the pilot need to hold an ATP certificate?

Argument 1: Pilot needs to have an ATP as the first comma means "or".

Argument 2: Pilot does not need to hold an ATP as it reads like this:

• Of a turbojet airplane or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter.
• of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration of 10 seats or more

The first comma breaks out the kind of airplane (10 or more). If you remove the breaks and put the sentence together, you get the sentence listed in the first bullet. The second bullet is the subtext broken up by the commas stating the 10 or more configuration.

I have always read that as encompassing 3 different types of aircraft-

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane in a commuter operation from a Seminole on up

It could definitely be written more clearly, but that's always been my interpretation of the rule

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I have always read that as encompassing 3 different types of aircraft-

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane in a commuter operation from a Seminole on up

It could definitely be written more clearly, but that's always been my interpretation of the rule

I'm not sure how one reads it any other way.

 

[Fly_Unity]

I have always read that as encompassing 3 different types of aircraft-

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane in a commuter operation from a Seminole on up

It could definitely be written more clearly, but that's always been my interpretation of the rule

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but why not read it like this?

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane

in a commuter operation

 

[SteveC]

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but why not read it like this?

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane

in a commuter operation

Because this phrase:
or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter
... doesn't have any commas in it.

 

[milleR]

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but why not read it like this?

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane

in a commuter operation

While I think a better format would be:

(1) Of a turbojet airplane; of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more; or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.

at the end of the day relying on punctuation to get around a rule is inviting a lot of trouble imo.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but why not read it like this?

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane

in a commuter operation

Two reasons. One is, as already pointed out, that's not what it says. Two, if English grammar is not a strong suit, the FAA Chief Counsel was asked back in 2017 and said,

Section 135.243(a)(1) requires that a PIC hold an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane whenever the PIC conducts passenger-carrying operations in (1) a turbojet airplane, (2) an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or (3) a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in 14 C.F.R. part 119. 2017 Retrix Interpretation.​

 

[Bob Ridpath]

That is a lot of responsibility for a little comma.

Comma - Definition, Rules, Usage and Examples

Commas: How often do you use a comma? Do you use it correctly? In this article, you will learn when and when not to use a comma in a sentence with examples.

byjus.com

 

[EIR]

I have always read that as encompassing 3 different types of aircraft-

1) any turbojet airplane regardless of seating capacity
2) any airplane with 10+ passenger seats i.e C208
3) any multiengine airplane in a commuter operation from a Seminole on up

It could definitely be written more clearly, but that's always been my interpretation of the rule

Most FSDO’s, including OKC do as well.

I have the email chain to prove it.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Most FSDO’s, including OKC do as well.

I have the email chain to prove it.

What is interesting is we have one FSDO saying one way, and another one saying the other way! Both are convinced they are right!

If you want to share the email chain, I would happily take it, if not, that's fine too!

 

[EIR]

What is interesting is we have one FSDO saying one way, and another one saying the other way! Both are convinced they are right!

If you want to share the email chain, I would happily take it, if not, that's fine too!

You can PM your email. I went in my saved folder and can’t seem to find the chain, it’ll take some digging since it probably got lost in the archives. It might be saved on my desktop or lap top at home, which I’ll check when I get back.