0901Z

[deadstick]

For all ye ATC types in the JC brain trust....

Every 4th Thursday (such as today) at 0901Z, what exactly happens on your end when the SIDs, STARs, and IAPs in your airspace have changes, for example the addition or removal of waypoints?
Do you flip a switch and all the new stuff appears?
If you have an aircraft departing at 0700Z with an ETA of 1100Z, if the initial fix on the arrival will change from ABC to XYZ, will the initial clearance include the old or new fix?
Is there a reference you can point me towards?

Thanks.

 

[NovemberEcho]

We get a briefing item to read and sign off on a week or so in advance, then promptly forget. Then at 0901z when someone does something we aren't expecting or we send them direct a fix and they say they don't see it in the box we are reminded (and/or freak out)

 

[deadstick]

This comes up every 4, 8, 12 weeks or so.

If most of you rationally-thinking people out there are asking themselves why this is such an issue, here’s the Paul Harvey edition: we’re 24/7, most of our destinations only have GPS approaches, AND (no kidding) we’re not allowed to update the database.

 

[NovemberEcho]

We haven't had any changes to existing approaches or whatever in the 3.5 years I've been in NY, but had an interesting experience while in the AF.

Apparently one of our GPS approaches completely changed, new fixes, new route, the whole works. Our quality assistant chief didn't feel that information was worth passing on. So one day, IFR, weather everywhere, I'm trying to give this guy direct the iaf and he can't find it, he's asking me if he can go direct these fixes I've never heard of before so I'm thinking this guy is lost, much confusion was had.

 

[Roger Roger]

This comes up every 4, 8, 12 weeks or so.

If most of you rationally-thinking people out there are asking themselves why this is such an issue, here’s the Paul Harvey edition: we’re 24/7, most of our destinations only have GPS approaches, AND (no kidding) we’re not allowed to update the database.

Wow, like half of what we do at work is upload nav data, e-charts, terrain...

 

[gotWXdagain]

We haven't had any changes to existing approaches or whatever in the 3.5 years I've been in NY, but had an interesting experience while in the AF.

Apparently one of our GPS approaches completely changed, new fixes, new route, the whole works. Our quality assistant chief didn't feel that information was worth passing on. So one day, IFR, weather everywhere, I'm trying to give this guy direct the iaf and he can't find it, he's asking me if he can go direct these fixes I've never heard of before so I'm thinking this guy is lost, much confusion was had.

You guys don’t have a chart binder or a computer display lookup in the radar room?

 

[NovemberEcho]

You guys don’t have a chart binder or a computer display lookup in the radar room?

We did, and it's eventually how we figured out what happened, but I had all our approaches memorized and hadn't been told (no one had been told) of any changes, so it never even occurred to me to look at the Approach plate for an approach I ran thousands of times before. Even the automations guy was never told so when you pulled up the map of the Approach on the scope it showed the original one.

 

[gotWXdagain]

You guys don’t have a chart binder or a computer display lookup in the radar room?

We did, and it's eventually how we figured out what happened, but I had all our approaches memorized and hadn't been told (no one had been told) of any changes, so it never even occurred to me to look at the Approach plate for an approach I ran thousands of times before. Even the automations guy was never told so when you pulled up the map of the Approach on the scope it showed the original one.

That’s quite the oversight on the automation guy’s part.

 

[NovemberEcho]

That’s quite the oversight on the automation guy’s part.

The automation guy can't change anything if he isn't told anything is changing. The Assistsnt Chief received everything, then went on leave without passing on the information.

 

[fish314]

So I've always been curious what would happen if I were on the approach as the change occurred. For example, the approach is going to change, I hit the IAF of the old version at 0857z, but don't get to the FAF until 0902z.

Or even better, I start the hold over fixed OLDFX on the outbound of my holding in lieu of at 0858z, but by the time I turn inbound it has become NEWFX. My theory: nothing happens airborne, but when you land, everyone looks exactly the same but they all have mustaches or goatees and are evil versions of themselves.

 

[deadstick]

At least for the Garmin GNS/GPS-series units, in your scenario I believe the boxes will know nothing. As far as I can tell, the units don’t recognize the 0900Z expiration — they simply go off the date.

The issue is compliance and the possible cluster flap that @NovemberEcho described. Now imagine if you’re doing an IAP, the final segment hasn’t changed, but the missed approach has. You turn left, but the new procedure is to turn right, and there’s a loss of separation.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

"Proceed direct FUBAR and then descend via the SNAFU2."

-frantic typing/swiping on EFB ensues-

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Or even better, I start the hold over fixed OLDFX on the outbound of my holding in lieu of at 0858z, but by the time I turn inbound it has become NEWFX. My theory: nothing happens airborne, but when you land, everyone looks exactly the same but they all have mustaches or goatees and are evil versions of themselves.

The wings explode and a giant middle finger pops up on the FMS screen.

 

[Roger Roger]

At least for the Garmin GNS/GPS-series units, in your scenario I believe the boxes will know nothing. As far as I can tell, the units don’t recognize the 0900Z expiration — they simply go off the date.

The issue is compliance and the possible cluster flap that @NovemberEcho described. Now imagine if you’re doing an IAP, the final segment hasn’t changed, but the missed approach has. You turn left, but the new procedure is to turn right, and there’s a loss of separation.

Don’t they just go off whatever current nav data is loaded? Or can the new ones have two sets of data loaded like the Swiss Starship Enterprise?

 

[deadstick]

Don’t they just go off whatever current nav data is loaded? Or can the new ones have two sets of data loaded like the Swiss Starship Enterprise?

Those units have one slot for nav data and one for TAWS. Only one nav database database can be loaded at a time. Heck, I’ve seen an FMS that require an external ZIP drive to update the one database. That’s not happening enroute.

 

[Roger Roger]

Those units have one slot for nav data and one for TAWS. Only one nav database database can be loaded at a time. Heck, I’ve seen an FMS that require an external ZIP drive to update the one database. That’s not happening enroute.

The NG can have two nav databases loaded at one time. If I’m on shift i upload the new as soon as it’s available. It will continue to use the old one until the date rollover. I assume the system checks the databases at boot up and decides which one to use for that flight.

 

[bimmerphile]

We haven't had any changes to existing approaches or whatever in the 3.5 years I've been in NY, but had an interesting experience while in the AF.

Apparently one of our GPS approaches completely changed, new fixes, new route, the whole works. Our quality assistant chief didn't feel that information was worth passing on. So one day, IFR, weather everywhere, I'm trying to give this guy direct the iaf and he can't find it, he's asking me if he can go direct these fixes I've never heard of before so I'm thinking this guy is lost, much confusion was had.

RNAV X 29? Controllers always sound hesitant giving approach clearances, like they're looking through plates for it lol

 

[NovemberEcho]

RNAV X 29? Controllers always sound hesitant giving approach clearances, like they're looking through plates for it lol

It's rare we run it and it's only existed for a year or so, so a lot of the older guys aren't comfortable with it. I wish we ran it more often, I think it makes 4 final so much easier

 

[bimmerphile]

It's rare we run it and it's only existed for a year or so, so a lot of the older guys aren't comfortable with it. I wish we ran it more often, I think it makes 4 final so much easier

I really love that approach, especially on a nice day. But the last time I flew it we got several vfr TA's and I almost took a seagull to the face over the Verrazano at 2k

 

[NovemberEcho]

I really love that approach, especially on a nice day. But the last time I flew it we got several vfr TA's and I almost took a seagull to the face over the Verrazano at 2k

Small price to pay for a nice view